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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Our Challenging Children (gifted, ADHD, sensitive, defiant)
Bedtime and the Defiant Toddler



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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:48 am
HELP!!

My three year old is now in a bed. Well, in theory he's in a bed, reality... he's running out and dumping all his toys, ripping the shades, tormenting his younger sister in the crib, etc for three hours until he finally crashes at 10PM.

All the books say to take the child by the hand, and lead them back to bed saying, "We stay in our beds." I wish I could introduce them to this child, it just does not work!! Of course this is symptomatic of his other behaviors. He just does. not. listen. Consequences? He doesn't care.

HELP Sad
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:54 am
My DD (3) is very strong willled. I've been having a fun time with her lately in lots of areas.

One thing that helps is to give her choices (though I feel like I'm giving them to her all day, and she is running the show). But it helps. Because she's the type that the answer to ANY direct command is basically "no" and she doesn't care.

So with bedtime....she chooses pajamas. She chooses whether she wants a book first or brush her teeth first. And then she chooses a book. Etc....

She generally goes to bed before 8 pm. Any day that she naps, she won't go before 10 so I cut out napping - it isn't worth it.

I also found it helpful to give her some very active time in the afternoon. Lately I take her to a playground for about an hour. It really helps her to expend her energy. She comes home famished, eats her dinner nicely, and has a bath, and then the wind-down to bedtime begins.

Best of Luck to you. You know the joke about the little boy who tells his teacher that his Mommy prays every night? She says "Thank G-d he's in bed!"
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:08 am
Chayalle wrote:
My DD (3) is very strong willled. I've been having a fun time with her lately in lots of areas.

One thing that helps is to give her choices (though I feel like I'm giving them to her all day, and she is running the show). But it helps. Because she's the type that the answer to ANY direct command is basically "no" and she doesn't care.

So with bedtime....she chooses pajamas. She chooses whether she wants a book first or brush her teeth first. And then she chooses a book. Etc....

She generally goes to bed before 8 pm. Any day that she naps, she won't go before 10 so I cut out napping - it isn't worth it.

I also found it helpful to give her some very active time in the afternoon. Lately I take her to a playground for about an hour. It really helps her to expend her energy. She comes home famished, eats her dinner nicely, and has a bath, and then the wind-down to bedtime begins.

Best of Luck to you. You know the joke about the little boy who tells his teacher that his Mommy prays every night? She says "Thank G-d he's in bed!"


OP again

We typically try to do choices like you mentioned, ie pajamas, books. He doesn't nap every day, and when he does it's less than an hour. He is outside running around for HOURS every day. This kid is an energizer bunny!

We also do supper, bathtime, winding down time ie lots of books, lights dimmed. We also have blackout shades in his room so that's not an issue.


I love the joke!!
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:16 am
There were a few Nanny programs in Israel about kids who won't go to sleep, something like what you are describing. All they did was take the child back to bed, each time. No talking, no soothing - nothing. Just silently leading the child back to bed, even 100 times. It took a while, but the kids learned that they may not come out of bed because there is nothing in it for them.
I would suggest soothing foods for dinner. Nothing with sugar or food coloring. No sugary drinks, and that includes OJ and AJ. When bedtime rolls around, have a specific routine (it sounds like you do) and follow it religiously. Offer a story, music - whatever, and when you leave the room say: good night, you are not allowed to come out of bed (or something like that). Afterwards, no one is to say another word to him that night. Silently guide him back to his bed. Every single time. It works!
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:24 am
My son is turning 3 IYH next month and just this week learned to climb out of his crib. I said goodbye to my sleep for now because I can deal with him being around the house stirring up trouble by day, but knowing he is loose at night will not make me sleep very well.

So basically I'm buying him a bed and will give him the choice to sleep in the crib or in his new bed. I'm sure he'll choose his bed. And when he chooses that enough times, he'll eventually learn that bedtime means he stays in bed.

What works here is to give a choice, and one of the choices not very appealing. These two choices (crib vs bed) worked for my other kids.

I also have a 4.5 yr old who insists on his way and only his way for almost everything. The trick here is to put him in control of the situation. He would come down from bed dozens of times. Finally I told him he may come down 3 times and that's it. When he felt he had a little leeway, he ended up coming down only once, because he knew he'd have to save one chance if he needed the bathroom, and another if he needed a drink, and so he only had one left. And he felt he had some control over his life in that area because it was his own decision. Recently I did tell him that if he comes down 4 times, he'd have only 2 left for the next night and that worked well too. He asked if he doesn't come down at all, if he'd have 6 for the next night, and then told me with a conniving smile that he's not going to come down at all, he's going to wait until he has 100 chances saved up. Well, I was happy to hear that. 33 days of him staying in bed would be wonderful.

Before anyone tells me that it's horrible to limit the number of times a child can come out of bed, I'm adding in the small detail that it only goes until about 9:30 PM when he comes to sleep on the couch. I think 3 times in 2.5 hours for a sleeping child is sufficient.
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gila-rina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:32 am
I have a child for whom negative consequences mean nothing. She is not a bad kid, but too independent and pretty stubborn. What worked for the Morahs is school was to give her positive reinforcements. Like, when they are told for example to wash their hands and she does so - she gets to mark it on her chart. Once the chart is done she gets a prize. The chart is small, and during the day there lots of opportunities to fill it up in a day. They used this system for a few months, and then only when she wasn't cooperating. I think they don't have to do it at all now, at the end of the year.
Maybe try offering him a sticker on his chart for every 5 minutes that he stays in bed and see how that goes. Good luck
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 4:55 pm
thank you all for the suggestions.
leading him back to bed 100 times just does not work. believe me, we tried!! I could see that it would work with most kids, however. (bli ayin hara, I'm sure it will with my daughter)

re: supper, we don't give sugar, etc.

we've tried sticker charts with other things, and he doesn't respond to them. same with the choices. if you ask him if he wants XYZ or ABC, he will just yell NO!

we are at our wits end Sad
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 5:58 pm
one word: Melochew.
Two words: Crib Tent.
Three words: You'll Thank Me.
Four words: Been there, done that.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 6:07 pm
Remind yourself that this is a stage. Really.

What has worked best here for similar issues is to sit in a chair just inside or just outside the room, and keep saying, "shh... it's quiet time" at the end of bedtime routine. If they talk or jump around, just remind them. It takes a while every night until they get in better habits, then you can gradually fade it out.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 7:30 pm
mamabear, I understand that that approach works for some people, but we don't want to go that route.

thank you all for the suggestions, I will think about it and see which makes the most sense for us and keep you all posted Smile
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Aribenj




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:46 pm
BTDT too...

DS was like that. He still kind of is. In his case, I tried EVERYTHING. Taking him by the hand wasn't going to work bc he would go limp and lie on the floor and then I'd have to carry him into bed... Which wasn't going to happen bc he's huge.

I even tried melatonin, which worked in the sense that it totally knocked him out in 10 minutes flat.

However, I figured out that the issue was a little deeper. In his case, I think it's more of a security thing.

So for him #1 is a predictable schedule. Every night. (dinner, bath, pjs, playing quietly in his room until his little brother is in bed, books, shema, cuddling, good night)

#2 is sort of gently weaning him off mom during bedtime. I say shema and hamalach with him in his bed, then I lie there with him for a few minutes. After a while, I tell him I'm going to stand by the door, where he can't feel me but he can see me for a few minutes.

Then I tell him I'm going to be outside his room where he can't see me but he can hear me. (this is where I read DD her bedtime story, so this way ds can hear my voice.) The trick is to move on at the right time. It can't be so soon that they feel scared or cheated, and it can't be so late that they get used to it. Sometimes I'll let DS decide when he's ready for me to move on to the next step. Sometimes it will take just a few minutes. Sometimes I need to push him.

But I find that by doing this, he's starting to trust more the fact that even though I'm not WITH him, I'm still there and if he needs anything he can call me and I'll come.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:22 pm
I would take out the baby sister in the crib and move out all the toys too.

I would do the whole routine-shema, hugs, etc, etc. Then lock the door with me on the inside (if you are worried abt fires, etc.) and read a book while totally ignoring the tantrum. He will scream and kick but the door will be locked and you will ignore him and he will figure out in a few days that screaming isn't going to work. Then gradually, you start letting him have some toys back, if he's a big boy and can go to sleep nicely by himself.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2011, 10:19 pm
Dina Friedman has an excellent bedtime routine which we followed with quite a bit of success.
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 03 2011, 12:19 pm
I hate hate hate to say this, but some kids really don't need that much sleep. What happens if you put him in every night at 9:30 or 10:00? Does he function worse? If so, then yes, he needs the sleep.

I know you said you didn't want to go this way, but Melatonin has literally changed our lives. Under the supervision of a doctor, you can use a tiny dose for just long enough to regulate the sleep cycle and then pull him off. I did the whole sleep routine with all of my kids, and it worked for all but one.

Also, I second trying to move the baby out temporarily while you work on this behaviorally, if not for the whole night than just until your toddler falls asleep. It gives you a lot more leeway.

As for consequences... Hatzlachah.
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