Are Frum people less happy than non Frum?(threads merged)

amother

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 4:57 pm

ora_43 wrote:

You were describing how Lisa has less pressure because she has a very different kind of "community." I was saying that, personally, I would choose to have the pressure and the community. It's relevant, as is the question of happiness, because of the OP/ the title of this thread, not because of what you were or weren't trying to say.

The statement about family was a comparison. I didn't say anything about Lisa's family at all.

You seem to be seeing the "frum world" through a very particular experience. Where I'm from, frum people are out in the world, learning in universities, going to work, etc. And forming friendships with all kinds of people. Your world is not the entire frum world.

But the people in my world tend to form their closest friendships with those who best understand them, which is almost always other frum Jews. Which is where it ties back in to the OP and the question of happiness. OP asked if community leads to unhappiness, because of the pressure. I think ultimately, when they have a choice, most people choose the friends/community who they feel most at home with, which tends to be people similar to them, even if it means some more pressure. Because it's worth it.

"You seem to be seeing the "frum world" through a very particular experience. Where I'm from, frum people are out in the world, learning in universities, going to work, etc. And forming friendships with all kinds of people. Your world is not the entire frum world."

LOL

Ok, so my last post came after you wrote this (you could take a look now if you want).. but nope, sorry. What you are assuming about me is very very off base. I myself, and everyone I refer to when I generally describe the frum community are very much "out in the world, learning in universities and going to work." My previous post details that I went to a huge non-Jewish university as well as grad school (and not one of the "jewish" non-Jewish universities either). I have been "working" as an attorney for years. Should I go on? And no, I am not from NY.. HAHAH! Everything. I. say. still. stands. for. people. like. me.

Are you familiar with straw-man arguments? When you portray the other person as if they are making a claim that they are not- a claim that is often weak and easy to defeat, and you respond to that claim instead of what the person is actually saying. You have set up a few of those. "Where I'm from, frum people are out in the world......, forming friendships with all kinds of people. Your world is not the entire frum world." Well that sounds righteous and reasonable! No? Except that I never said or indicated that people in my world are not "out there" "working" etc and "forming friendships with all kinds of people." In fact, if you recall, I am the one who specifically said that we ALL hopefully) have non Jewish friends. No reason to respond in a way that mischaracterizes what I said, or randomly paints a picture of "my world" which I NEVER indicated it was. I painstankingly showed the sorts of relationships I think we, for the most, part, as frum Jews do NOT have commonly have with nonJews, which is very different. If you are still going to insist that only in my "very particular" frum world is this uncommon, and that it is the norm for us frummies to have the types of friendships with non-Jews I described Lisa having, then sorry I dont just disagree, I simply dont believe you are being honest.

Also, yes you never said Lisa in particular has no family...Its nice to say you didnt mean anyone in particular but when we are discussing the Lisas of the world, its disingenusous to throw in "family" (as if being frum and having family go hand in hand) when you said "id rather have this pressure and family, than neither." Okay, so Ill say: "id rather have the pressure of being frum and health, than having neither." Hey, Im not saying Lisa in particular is not healthy, I am just making an innocent comparison. Confused

"But the people in my world tend to form their closest friendships with those who best understand them, which is almost always other frum Jews. Which is where it ties back in to the OP and the question of happiness. OP asked if community leads to unhappiness, because of the pressure. I think ultimately, when they have a choice, most people choose the friends/community who they feel most at home with, which tends to be people similar to them, even if it means some more pressure. Because it's worth it.[/quote]" Sheeeesh, so then you DO agree with me after all Wink

Ok so cut the c**p (can I say that on here?) and trying to make me sound like Im saying something I am not. There is a huge qualitative and quantitative difference between Lisas friendships with non-frummies than with ours, for the most part. And its nice that you think the associated pressure etc of being frum is worth it.. I havent really said my opinion on that either way.

amother

Wed, Oct 12 2011, 9:53 am

Mimisinger wrote:

Tehilla, I'm glad that you find being frum such an amazing thing.

However, there are plenty of non-Jews, secular Jews, etc. that find life to be wonderful. And, yes, that's without the torah. That's why there are people who go off the derech who stay off the derech. And people who have seen what it is to be a Torah Jew and decided that they weren't interested.

It's a wonderful thing to say that a Torah life is the only fulfilled life, but that's just not true. People are happy and they are satisfied with their lives even though they don't follow mitzvos.

Tzaddik Vera Lo, Rasha VeTov Lo.... while they may think and you may think they seem happy, there has got to be an emptiness inside, no matter what they are and where they reach. With the morals of today being so low, it is hard to fathom their happiness and satisfaction. OTD Jews are rebelling against something that someone did to them, they are not rebelling at the Torah, or the laws therein which they know deep down to be true. They choose to sin, as the yetzer hara is stronger than their convictions.

With all the many faults we can find in ourselves, still we live lives of purpose, of honor, of class, we are princesses and princes, we are the children of our King. We are blessed more and more if we choose to see the cup full instead of empty. Happiness is inside every one of us, we choose and create our own happiness. The unhappiest frum person is still better off in many ways than the person claiming to be the "happiest" secular Jew.

I hear that in EY even totally secular Israelis build a sukka. Decorate it. WHY? I can understand Chanuka being celebrated, it's easy. Or Purim. Pesach takes effort, but it's only a week, and matzo is not that bad. But Sukkos? In the USA you will not find a secular Jew interested in a Sukka, or in Shavuos.
But in EY the "traditional" Jews whose grandparents were frum, are still building Sukkos today.
I find that fascinating.

amother

Wed, Oct 12 2011, 1:20 pm

amother wrote:

Mimisinger wrote:

Sorry, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with those statements. Frum and non-frum people alike struggle for "meaning" and feel emptiness. (A Purpose Driven Life, would agree with you though, but in regards to Christianity.) There are plenty of frum and non-frum people who feel fulfilled, and lead very happy lives.

I wasn't religious, and it wasn't only about rejection I felt I got from the frum people in the community. It was more of an intellectual dilemma I had with God. I became religious for practical and other reasons I'm not going to get into now, but it definitely wasn't a "feeling" I got that made me become frum.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 2:52 am

Merrymom wrote:

yoshi wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

This is a very interesting thread so I'm glad it's been revived. My take on the issue is simply my experiences say........at Walmart or Target. Why are so many non-religious/Jewish mothers snapping, yelling, talking disgusting to their own children (in public no less). That doesn't sound very happy to me, it sounds very self-centered, impatient, and unhappy. I rarely, rarely come across that same behavior amongst frum women. Why is that? Now, I'm waiting for someone to say not everyone is like that. Yes I know that but how come so many are?

Have you been to NJ?

Yes, why? Are you insinuating that NJ mothers yell alot? LOL

Yes, I've seen frum mothers yell but not with the extreme meaness that I witness constantly elsewhere.

I guess that really depends on the surrounding society. Here in Israel I definitely cannot say that frum women are more gentle with their kids than secular women.

I also don't think happiness is connected to frumness. It certainly isn't a raison d'etre to be frum. Sometimes being frum can contribute to being happy; for example, keeping Shabbat can unify the family, bringing them all together for festive meals on a regular basis. But happiness is pretty much a factor of personality, self-esteem, and the amount of love you receive and give in your life (plus health, parnassa, etc) -- none of these have absolutely anything to do with being frum.

MiriW

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 8:23 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I also don't think happiness is connected to frumness. It certainly isn't a raison d'etre to be frum. Sometimes being frum can contribute to being happy; for example, keeping Shabbat can unify the family, bringing them all together for festive meals on a regular basis. But happiness is pretty much a factor of personality, self-esteem, and the amount of love you receive and give in your life (plus health, parnassa, etc) -- none of these have absolutely anything to do with being frum.

I haven't read the entire post, so please forgive me if this has already come up, but happiness has everything to do with CHOICES. We are supposed to constantly be making the choice to be happy, to accept what we are given with love and knowledge that it is ultimately for our best, even if we don't see the reasoning until Olam Haba. I know that it is difficult, and I am certainly not saying that I always pass the test, however I have personally witnessed this to be true in my own life when facing difficult circumstances, as well as in others' lives who faced ridiculously difficult circumstances.

The reason for doing mitzvos is to create a connection between us and Hashem, which gives us a spiritual pleasure greater than any material pleasure can give us. Happiness has nothing to do with the amount of love received, and certainly nothing to do with parnassa. There are so many in the secular world with so much who are seriously depressed, while so many people living for true meaning who have nothing materially but are so happy.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 18 2011, 2:26 am

MiriW wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

I will respectfully disagree. Happiness has a lot to do with love received. People who received no love as children and fail to find love as adults are usually not that happy (excepting a few loner types who don't need this). The love you receive as a child builds your self-esteem, the love you receive as an adult brings joie de vivre to your life and gives you something to live for.

As for parnassa - I wasn't saying the richer you are, the happier you are. Not at all. One doesn't need to be Einstein to realize that a fancier xyz won't bring long-lasting happiness. But there is a certain basic level needed in order to be happy. Those who are struggling to put a roof over their heads or food in their chidren's mouths are not happy.

As for choices, and the choice to be happy, despite circumstances - there I agree with you. However, I don't think this is usually a part of the 'frum package', even if ideally perhaps it is supposed to be. On a practical level, I don't see frum people making this choice more than non-frum people, and I see as many bitter frum faces as secular ones.
I view this wonderful 'be happy and thankful regardless' approach as more a factor of personality than anything else.