'Risk Factors' Reloaded

roza

Tue, Dec 26 2006, 2:22 pm

The following was posted as a comment by Nachum Klafter on one of the respected j blogs:

Quote:

As a psychoanalyst, I do not believe that it will ever be possible to reduce going off the derekh to "causes". Human behavior simply does not work this way. "Risk factors" is a much better concept, and this is what Rabbi Horowitz has in mind when he says "risk factor". It is not a 'cause', but there is such a high association between mistreatment (neglect, abuse) and going off the derekh, but exactly how the assocition works is not clear.

I think the question of why people go off the derekh is very similar to asking the question as to why people become frum. It is so complicated and there are so many different reasons for so many different people. What was going on in the person's life, what was going on in the person's mind, who did that person meet, when did that person meet them, etc.

However, in my opinoin, there ARE a few generalizations which CAN be made about going off the derekh:

1) Going off the derekh is a rejection of the lifestyle and beliefs of one's parents and teachers.

2) Deep identification with one's parents and teachers will make it much less likely for someone to go of the derekh.

3) A confident sense that one is respected and loved by one's parents and teachers is a key ingredient to forming identifications and attachements to these authority figures.

4) Being mistreated, abused, or neglected by parents and teachers, or feeling as though one is not respected or loved by these figures will greatly interfere with forming attachments and identifications.

5) Seeing hatred, anger, hypocrisy, arrogance, and immoratiliy among religious authority figures is a tremendous chilul HaShem, and the impact of such a chilul HaShem on children can be profound.

6) Seeing religious leaders who are ohavei yisroel, moser nefesh for fellow Jews, humble, kind, empathic, and able to listen has a deep impact on all Jews, especially young children. When Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlit"a came to Cincinnati for a wedding, he spoke at our day school to all the children. My daughter was extremely young at the time, and whenever she hears the name Kamenetsky she immediately and enthusiastically states, "I met him!". This made an impact on her.

7) Being told to believe things which make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and being scolded for asking reasonable questions will lead to a very shallow emuna in Torah. Such an emuna is not even really belief in Torah, but is simply the absence of critical thinking about Torah. Such individuals are very vulnerable to concluding that the Torah is a bunch of nonsense once they start asking honest questions.

8 ) Seeing religoius authorities approach information and knolwedge from the outside world in an intellectually honest and sophisticated fashion also has a very deep impact on students.

9) Feeling like a failure in the Torah world is extremely bad for children and also contributes to going off the derekh. This is why a yeshiva system which emphasizes only the greatness of limud ha-gemara puts the bottem 1/3 of kids from an IQ standpoint in a very bad situation. Several mechanechim I have spoken with (particularly in Israel) state that children who simply don't have kup for gemara often go off the derekh because they feel like no one is interested in them at all. [my addition: same goes for 'shlichus or bust' system in Chabad]

10) Similarly, socially awkward children who feel rejected by their peers may also end up feeling shunned by the entire religious establishment. (This is not logical, but it is how the mind works.) Such children, if identified in advance, should probably be treated delicately, and given extra positive attention and feedback. They are needier than other kids in terms of self esteem.

11) Children who during adolescence or young adulthood develop homosexual feelings are at very high risk for going off the derekh, especialy be-zeman ha zeh where homosexuality is defined by secular society as an "orientation" and "lifestyle."

12) Does the individual have a sense of a role in the world as a religious Jew. This might be mystical, rationalistic, nationalistic/Zionistic, whatever. But a religious person needs to have a hashkafa of some sort which organizes in his/her mind how and why it is important to keep the mitzvos, learn Torah, marry, have children, raise them to do the same, etc.

The factors which go into a lifestyle change--in the case we are discussing, the abondment of Torah life--are far too numerous to make predictions. Nevertheless, I believe that the above factors are very signfiicant in forming and deepening an identity as a Torah Jew

now discuss....

chavamom

Tue, Dec 26 2006, 2:37 pm

Wow! Excellent post and much to think about and discuss.

chavamom

Tue, Dec 26 2006, 2:39 pm

OK, I mentioned this tangentially on the other thread

Quote:

5) Seeing hatred, anger, hypocrisy, arrogance, and immoratiliy among religious authority figures is a tremendous chilul HaShem, and the impact of such a chilul HaShem on children can be profound.

I'm really glad to see someone else acknowledge it.

chocolate moose

Tue, Dec 26 2006, 2:47 pm

I don't agree. Each kid has his own mind, regardless of what he saw growing up.

If this were true, there would be no baal tshuvas !!!

amother

Tue, Dec 26 2006, 2:51 pm

roza wrote:

1) Going off the derekh is a rejection of the lifestyle and beliefs of one's parents and teachers.

Most often it's the parents that get blamed.

Therefore, I felt that this viewpoint was worth posting on this thread as well.

Would any author/speaker/Rov have anyone pay attention to him, if he would say, the quality of parenting has little/no effect on Kids turning off?

How inspiring would that be to the public?

Find me even one that would not share the above position publicly.

Now, if you ask any At-Risk experts who have At-Risk kids themselves, they might give you a slightly different answer privately!

I have two nephews, not related to one another, that are termed At-Risk, and both grew up in beautiful loving homes (I frequent both homes, they're near where I live)

amother

Tue, Dec 26 2006, 9:33 pm

[quote="roza"]The following was posted as a comment by Nachum Klafter on one of the respected j blogs:

Quote:

7) Being told to believe things which make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and being scolded for asking reasonable questions will lead to a very shallow emuna in Torah. Such an emuna is not even really belief in Torah, but is simply the absence of critical thinking about Torah. Such individuals are very vulnerable to concluding that the Torah is a bunch of nonsense once they start asking honest questions.

This hit home! How true! I heard of a daughter of someone I know, asking a Frumkeit question in a High School in B.P. The girl was at that time a super achiever- high marks and high popularity. The teacher replied "Aren't you embarassed to be asking such a question? People will think you're crazy if a girl like you asks such questions".

The teacher never answered her then or later. The girl was embarrased to ask another teacher after that. This was the beginning of a major downfall. The girl felt that the teacher answered that way because she had no answer.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Dec 27 2006, 2:16 am

The good thing about a post like this is that it pushes everybody's buttons. more amothers will follow I am sure LOL

I agree with the risk factor but reduced. The child must feel that he belongs to something and feel good about what he belongs to.

Quote:

9) Feeling like a failure in the Torah world is extremely bad for children and also contributes to going off the derekh. This is why a yeshiva system which emphasizes only the greatness of limud ha-gemara puts the bottem 1/3 of kids from an IQ standpoint in a very bad situation. Several mechanechim I have spoken with (particularly in Israel) state that children who simply don't have kup for gemara often go off the derekh because they feel like no one is interested in them at all. [my addition: same goes for 'shlichus or bust' system in Chabad]

This statement IMO is a mixture of truth and falsehood. Although I don't believe a yeshiva should stress only Gemora, it can never be an insignificant part of the curriculum. I would say the prob here is more the school's ignorance of or unwillingness to strengthen the students in those skills necessary to understand Gemora.(the prob is almost never IQ). The system has at least 6 years before starting Gemara to test those skills and help those who need it. One is not born with or with out a Gemora kop. A child is born with differing levels of the necessary skills. If they come naturally at the desired level then they say one has a gemora kop. B"H we have only one shlichus or bust yeshiva in Chabad Israel and mostly kids from strong shlichus families send there. There is also a school for kids of shluchim and I have no idea how much they stress carrying on the family tradition.

What is encouraged is one year kvutza and one yr shlichus - trial run so to speak. A boy can see there if its not for him.

Tefila

Wed, Dec 27 2006, 12:45 pm

Quote:
from above article

Quote:

and amother

Quote:

I agree fully!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Motek

Sat, Dec 30 2006, 9:00 pm

roza wrote:

[my addition: same goes for 'shlichus or bust' system in Chabad]

A married couple goes on shlichus. What does shlichus have to do with a 13-18 year old going off the derech? In my opinion, zilch.

Furthermore, the "system" he knocks is the Rebbe's ...

Imaonwheels

Sun, Dec 31 2006, 4:45 am

Motek, she wasn't criticizing shlichus itself. Just the assumption that a yeshiva would make that it is for everyone.

Making a boy who feels his shlichus is not to be an official shaliach but to spread yiddishkeit where he works and lives that somehow something is wrong with him. The rebbe expects us to be his shluchim wherever we find ourselves - running a Chabad House, learning in kollel or sitting in an office.

In that vein, kol hakavod to the Beis Mashiach for running a series of articles on regular working people who spread yiddishkeit as they perform their regular jobs.

Motek

Sun, Dec 31 2006, 2:56 pm

who is "she" imaonwheels? roza didn't say anything in this thread except to discuss nachum klafter's commnts

the quote I commented on was Nachum Klafter's which we were invited to discuss.

roza

Sun, Dec 31 2006, 3:38 pm

Motek wrote:

who is "she" imaonwheels? roza didn't say anything in this thread except to discuss nachum klafter's commnts

the quote I commented on was Nachum Klafter's which we were invited to discuss.

'shlichus or bust' was my addition/insertion in that quote, and Imaonwheels was kind enough to clarify it for you.