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Forum -> The Social Scene -> Notable Clips & Links
Escaping My Religion Leah Vincent on the Katie Couric Show
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 12:19 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
I'm not really following. You choose the Torah as your moral compass, but then you have to follow through with that. You don't make a personal moral choice on many levels beyond that, barring those situations for which there are various options all rooted in the Torah.

Ok, if that's how you see it, that's fine. It's not really worth it to press the point. Was just trying to show things from a different perspective.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 12:21 am
OK. Good night Smile
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 1:32 am
BlueRose52 wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
The interview briefly mentions Leah's father's revelation that the girl had been under psychiatric care. Leah brushes that off as an excuse to negate her believability. But she doesn't answer the question. Was she seeing a psychiatrist? Why? Who was paying? What behaviors did she exhibit as a teen other than once wearing a tight sweater?

What difference does this make regardless? Does any of it justify disowning one's child at the age of 16? It's well known that the frum world sends people to counseling for any behavior that is out of the norm. Being that that's case, I suppose anyone who goes through some tumultuous years can now be discredited because they spent some time with a therapist?

Isramom8 wrote:
These seem to be parents who would do just what you and I would do, which is that we'd do our best.

Firstly, that's a meaningless statement. Everyone thinks they're doing "their best". But everyone's definition of "doing their best" is totally different. Secondly, we haven't heard anything from the parents (aside from that very unflattering letter). Why assume the best from them, yet at the same time, the worst from her?


She got her say. But she didn't answer for herself as far as her past. So do we just accept the view and accusations of a child who went OTD, even when previous difficulties with her, and trying to find solutions to help, were mentioned? We don't know what conditions and compromises may have been offered to the girl before she was (in her view) disowned.

What do her siblings have to say about their parents and family life? I'd like to see a sib appear on the show.

I hope that by going through the process of healing, Leah and her DH will find their way back to some kind of avodas Hashem that will bring them joy and meaning, and a reconciliation with Leah's family.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 11:22 am
does anyone have a link to the clip where they read the letter from her father?
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 11:33 am
penguin wrote:
does anyone have a link to the clip where they read the letter from her father?

http://www.katiecouric.com/on-.....gion/
It's the last clip on the page.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 12:00 pm
Years ago there was a memoir by the mother of a baalas t'shuvah called Black Becomes a Rainbow. It wasn't great literature, but it was interesting and revealing to see the process from the standpoint of the secularized mother.

The Jewish Observer, then entering its death throes, published a review of the book. Unfortunately, the reviewer they chose was incapable of seeing the bigger picture, and described the book as, "at best, a manual for baalei t'shuvah of what not to do." I was utterly disgusted by the review. It missed the primary (and perhaps only) value of the book: to demonstrate how people experience the same events entirely differently.

Were one to accept the author's version of events at face value, it would seem her daughter was mindlessly rigid; rude; contradictory; and often just unpleasant. But a closer reading of the book suggested that while the daughter might not have been perfect, much of the volatility arose from the mother's perception and interpretation. Most of us would view the daughter's increasing commitment to kashrus, for example, as pretty typical of someone who becomes observant. To the author, though, the increasing "demands" during her daughter's visits were a slap in the face -- a challenge to her own Yiddishkeit and her experiences as a Holocaust survivor.

And that's the difficulty with memoirs in general. They present a particular interpretation of events that can be illuminating, revealing, or informative for the rest of us. But we have to realize that memoirs, however well vetted and edited, do not represent emes or an objective truth. They may represent truths -- but they don't provide a panoramic view.

Whether it's an "Off-the-Derech" memoir; an "On-the-Derech" memoir; or a show-business memoir, there are plenty of things we can learn from seeing the world through someone else's eyes. The trick, though, is to keep in mind that the writer is sharing what he/she feels to be true. The fact that he/she published a book or article doesn't necessarily make it more "true" than the perceptions of those who didn't.

I don't disbelieve or discount these stories, but I try to remember that events can feel very, very differently depending on one's perspective.
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 10 2013, 1:08 pm
Fox's point is a good one. By accident I realized that I knew who the daughter in Black Becomes a Rainbow was. Here is who she is: an extremely devoted mom who would drive around the neighborhood picking up and dropping off kids so that her young teenage daughter could have these kids attend the day camp she wanted to run. A mom with the sweetest teenage daughter, bright, polite and devoted. Above all, the mom and daughter are very balanced people - not crazy or extreme.

I heard that the next book that author (the mother of the woman I realized I knew) wrote was a memoir of the affairs she had.

So this is a perfect example of not being able to believe everything you see or read. The author experienced her daughter one way, which was not at all what I thought of her. The same may be true of Rabbi and Mrs. Miller (Leah's parents).

By the way, when they came over of course I hid my copy of the book. Seeing it in my house would have just been hurtful. And I never mentioned that I'd made the connection.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 4:58 pm
Okay, I went back & listened to what Rabbi Miller wrote. And I believe him.

Katie seems to think it's obvious that that fact that Leah went on to earn a Masters from Harvard proves that she did not have mental health issues, as stated by Leah's father. It proves that she's smart -which nobody denies - and possibly that she is now healthier and able to complete a degree.

Katie asks Leah if she considers herself Jewish. Leah replies that it was a struggle, because she was raised to believe that if you were not ultra-Orthodox you were not Jewish. That is such a lie, I can almost guarantee you I could find a refutation of that in one of Rabbi Miller's books, but I'm not going to spend the time (although I do enjoy reading what he writes.)

I feel very sad for the Millers that their best efforts did not produce better results. And I feel very sad for Leah that she can't distinguish between what she remembers, what she may have imagined (as her father says) and what really happened.

But no way do I believe a word of what Leah is saying about these good and very normal people, who are not extreme in any way. They would not have lived far out of town (and moved even further, from Pittsburgh to Calgary, Alberta) in order to teach and love all types of Jews, if they bore any resemblance to the fanatics she so vividly and falsely portrays.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 5:44 pm
penguin wrote:
But no way do I believe a word of what Leah is saying about these good and very normal people, who are not extreme in any way. They would not have lived far out of town (and moved even further, from Pittsburgh to Calgary, Alberta) in order to teach and love all types of Jews, if they bore any resemblance to the fanatics she so vividly and falsely portrays.

I don't know any of the people involved, so I'm not going to say anything about what's believable regarding them personally.

But in general, I think it's not far-fetched that someone could have an extreme, restrictive upbringing with parents who moved out of town to do outreach. There are plenty of people who manage to be warm and friendly with non-religious people who would still flip out if their children would go even slightly in that direction.

Sometimes the outreach aspect could even make the child feel more restricted. The child might have fewer "kosher" outlets available OOT than they would have in a bigger community, and might feel intense pressure to set a good example to the community.

Again, just speaking in general.
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ILOVELIFE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2013, 12:15 pm
lost wrote:
rainbow dash wrote:
Her story reminds me of an article in this wks Binah about a good girl who rebelled for just 2 weeks, after which she went back to being a good girl but unfortunately the rest of her live was defined by those 2 weeks.
The article is called Voices of Victory.


I really want to believe that Bina magazine did not publish a story the purpose of which is to shame girls into being "good girls." Please tell me we are better then this.


Did you read the article?! It portrayed the girl in a great light and her parents as the nuts.
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ILOVELIFE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2013, 12:44 pm
I have known the Millers and I know that they are def not the anti-college type...and her father is the king of intellectual discussions. Has anyone read his books? You can't read them when you're trying to fall asleep-- they take concentration.

Putting all that aside: I've been in the trenches with many OTD kids and adults over the years. Family. Friends. Students. I've learned two rules: No judging and no justifying. Somehow "no judging" is something many in our community like to promote but many justify their actions "he/she was hurt and hurting" "he/she went through this trauma"

the word nisayon in Hebrew has the word: Nes/ flag. Nisyonos can elevate us. The word ends with Yud, Vov, Nun= each of those letters go progressively lower Nisyonos have the power to pull us down. It's within us to choose: seek, argue, fight and pursue yiddishkeit despite the pain or allow the pain to pull you lower.

I will never forget one friend telling me that when she got into a recovery program for her alcohol addiction and had to take ownership for what she was doing with her life despite all the very legit painful situations she'd been through (including being repeatedly raped). Like the addiction psych told her: "They hurt you but it's your choice every day whether you want to keep hurting YOURSELF"

No judgment.
No justification either.
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