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Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi
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fromthedepths




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2013, 12:34 am
The answer to #1, as several posters have pointed out, has been yes, throughout centuries, throughout different communities, throughout different hashkafos. I don't think I need to add anything here to what the posters above me wrote.

The answer to #2, OTOH, is a machlokes rishonim. That's where the differences of opinion between the Rambam and Sefer Haikkarim comes in. As pointed out above, the Rambam would not consider such a Jew "kosher" while R. Yosef Albo would.

Even that is nuanced. There is a distinction between "apikores" and "kofer," and there are halachic implications for each. Again, it depends on the context. The Rambam discusses the halachic status of a Sadducee. In Hilchos Avodah Zara he calls them apikorsim, while in Hilchos Teshuva he calls them kofrim. Moreover, in Hilchos Shechita he permits shechita by a Sadducee as long as a "kosher" Jewish mashgiach is present. It's surprising because normally, an apikores' shechita is not considered kosher.

So in terms of halacha, it doesn't make sense to discuss mashiach as an abstract concept. It's important to know the context of the discussion.
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fromthedepths




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2013, 12:42 am
Another point. Requests for mashiach and for the geula are included in the Shemone Esre, in Bonei Yerushalayim and Matzmiach Keren Yeshua. Note that this is not the same as kibbutz galuyos, because that is mentioned in Mekabetz Nidchei Amo Yisrael. We say these words every day, some of us (not me) three times a day. It seems that the Anshei Knesses Hagedolah considered mashiach and geula central to our avodas Hashem. (FTR, they composed the tefillos during the time of Ezra Hasofer, much before another religion's obession with a messiah.)
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fromthedepths




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2013, 12:50 am
And another point. There is certainly a difference between doubts and outright rejection. See To Live Among Friends, by Rabbi Dovid Castle. Here's a relevant quote (pages 606-607), in the context of the mitzvah of hating a sinner:

Quote:
...one has to understand that there are many levels of belief. The Zohar says that Moshe Rabbeinu was closer to full clarity of faith than any other person, as it is written, ..."in My entire house he is the trusted one." However, even Moshe was not absolutely complete in emunah, faith. As long as the soul is in a body, its emunah cannot be complete. Many people confirm their belief in the thirteen principles of faith every day... This means that deep inside they know these principles are true, even though their belief is not totally rock-solid and they may have some doubts here or there... If one's belief is not totally unshakable, it is not rejection, and a person may not hate him.
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fromthedepths




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2013, 1:02 am
Potato Kugel wrote:
Just one more thing.
I have argued and have seen proof given that God exists attend any Discovery Seminar and you'll see it as well. And on a mass scale usually with several PhD's and other "professionals in the audience.


I think JoyInTheMorning was referring to the general concept of proof, and the idea that any logical system is incomplete.

Which could be a whole different thread. I find it interesting that the geonim and the rishonim actually encouraged "chakira," that is, coming up with intellectual proofs for the ikkarim (such as in the first chapter of Chovos Levavos). These days, it is no longer encouraged. Why? Probably because there is an understanding that Truth is much greater than any intellectual conception of it.

Not to mix up different threads, but it only goes to show that as we move further along in history, emotions and spirituality take on greater roles. The Tanya, for example, says that each and every Jew has innate love and fear of Hashem. IOW, according to chassidus, we all know the Truth deep inside. The only reason (some) people don't feel it is that something in us blocks it.
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bobeli




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2013, 1:05 am
I didn't read the whole thread but I was listening to this shiur when I saw this title and tought I'll share
Rabbi Weinberg parashas pinchas

very interesting on pinchas, eliyahu hanovi and bris mila
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chocolate fondue




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2013, 3:21 am
fromthedepths wrote:
Another point. Requests for mashiach and for the geula are included in the Shemone Esre, in Bonei Yerushalayim and Matzmiach Keren Yeshua. Note that this is not the same as kibbutz galuyos, because that is mentioned in Mekabetz Nidchei Amo Yisrael. We say these words every day, some of us (not me) three times a day. It seems that the Anshei Knesses Hagedolah considered mashiach and geula central to our avodas Hashem. (FTR, they composed the tefillos during the time of Ezra Hasofer, much before another religion's obession with a messiah.)


Can I 'like' this 3 times?
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