What's more important- kids davening or kindness to others?

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 12:25 am

Which do you stress the importance of more- your children davening or their kindness to others ? What are you more Makpid on? Which do you spend more time educating them about?

Which do you voice displeasure about more- when they don't daven or when they don't act with kindness ,embarass, put down and/or act snobbishly, unfairly to others?

What is the Torah way?

mumoo

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 12:29 am

I personally stress mitzvos adom bein lchaveiro-but that's probably because that's where my strength is-I am not a superior davener.

I also believe that as a mother I should regulate middos between children, but I feel like I shouldn't interfere in Hashem's relationships. I would be leery of forcing that on a child. What if he refuses to daven because he is angry at me?

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 12:45 am

I'm not sure about the Torah perspective on this, but I believe that if a frum child slights another child, the one being slighted will harbor a grudge towards frum people, by association. Kids are really sensitive. Subconciously, this will lead to those being slighted to have a distaste of anything related to Frumkeit, meaning Davening and other Mitzvos. Hence, the importance of nurturing our kids' Midos Bein Odom L'Chaveiro, as causing more people not to daven and be weak in observance of other Mitzvos as well.

Kids, that are highly regarded in the eyes of Hanhala and peers, that are haughty or nasty to others, are walking advertisements of NOT being frum, destroying seedlings of frumkeit, to some degree, with every slight.

Marion

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 2:17 am

I only have an infant, but I also think the being nice to others is more important. It encompasses so many more mitzvot than "just" davening. Dare I suggest that by showing kavod to others it's as if you showed kavod also to Hashem? Since we're all created b'tzalmo.

brooklyn

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 7:02 am

DEfinately kindness to others. I found the following article on the topic of Ahavas Yisroel.

Loving a fellow Jew and loving G-d
The Connection Between Ahavas Yisrael and Ahavas HaShem

The Zohar teaches that G-d, Torah and Israel are one. it therefore follows that the love for G-d (ahavas HaShem), the love for Torah (ahavas HaTorah), and ahavas Yisrael are one.[1] Since the essence of G-d, Torah and Israel is one, and an essence is indivisible; therefore, when one grasps a part of the essence one has the whole essence.[2]
For this reason:

Ahavas Yisrael is an indicator for ahavas HaShem, I.e., if a person is lacking in ahavas Yisrael, he is lacking in ahavas HaShem,[3] for one who loves the father should surely love the children.[4]

In ahavas Yisrael lies ahavas HaShem, I.e., ahavas Yisrael is a demonstration of ahavas HaShem. The soul of a Jew is literally a "part of the Divine"[5] as explained above in Tanya, chapter 32, and therefore when one loves the Divine within the Jew, that is actually ahavas HaShem.[6]

Ahavas Yisrael is the vessel for ahavas HaShem.[7] Through practicing ahavas Yisrael, one will eventually come to ahavas HaShem and ahavas HaTorah. One who works on his ahavas Yisrael will reach great heights in his ahavas HaShem.[8]

When one sees a Jew who only has ahavas Yisrael, one must see to it that: 1. he must also be brought to ahavas HaShem and ahavas HaTorah, and 2. his ahavas Yisrael should not only extend to feeding the needy, but should lead him to bring other Jews to ahavas HaShem and ahavas HaTorah.[9]
Between the three loves, ahavas HaShem, ahavas HaTorah and ahavas Yisrael, ahavas Yisrael is the greatest, for if one possesses true ahavas Yisrael, one automatically has ahavas HaShem and ahavas HaTorah. One who has ahavas HaShem does not necessarily have ahavas HaTorah, and one who has ahavas HaTorah does not necessarily have ahavas Yisrael.[10]

Ahavas Yisrael is greater than ahavas HaShem as the verse[11] itself testifies, "I love you, says G-d." Therefore when one has ahavas Yisrael, one loves that which the beloved G-d loves.[12]

Furthermore, the three loves correspond to the three pillars upon which the world stands:[13] Ahavas Yisrael corresponds to acts of kindness, ahavas HaTorah to Torah, and ahavas HaShem to avodah.[14]

greenfire

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 8:39 am

Thank you Brooklyn once again for a vast of information. That makes it easier for me to say - why can't we have both. Middos are definately important and I would discipline my child for lack thereof. However, I do encourage to daven as it is the one power I can deeply relate to G-d and I would desire for them to have that deep connection. (even if it's just from the soul and not a siddur or tehillim)

brooklyn

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 8:50 am

You're welcome. Very Happy

chocolate moose

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 9:51 am

I don't think you can generalize, and every situation is different.

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 9:58 am

OP here. You all made my day. I am dealing with a child who comes home from school telling me that there are kids that "shuckle" when they daven, and then humiliate other kids, for fun. I know kids will always be kids, but it seems that the teachers who witness this day to day, are ignoring it.

Even one word now and then, would make the tormented kid(s) feel at least a little relieved.

greenfire

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 10:02 am

You know - my dd got an aleph- for tefilla at which point she made a comment - how can one judge how I daven - I am saying all the words and if I can't keep up w/class its cause they mumble. I promptly relayed message to teacher who realized dd was right!

TzenaRena

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 10:07 am

Quote:

but it seems that the teachers who witness this day to day, are ignoring it.

Speak to the teacher about it. He (she) should not be ignoring it. But often the teacher is not there when this goes on, and that's how it happens to begin with.

Invariably, when my children complain of either themselves, or friends being humiliated or harrassed by a classmate, I ask them what did your teacher say/do? and the answer is always that it's by recess, or lunch or something of the sort, and the teacher didn't see/know about it.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Jan 14 2007, 4:43 am

Quote:

Which do you stress the importance of more- your children davening or their kindness to others ? What are you more Makpid on? Which do you spend more time educating them about?

I absolutely refuse to have 2 Torahs, it is a very xtian concept. We must daven and we must act like mentschen. No emphasis and no difference. As they get a little older and able to discern we have talked about what does HaShem think about being his people and not acting as we should one to another, etc. That how we act when the tefilin come off has a lot to say on what kind of davening you had.

Motek

Sun, Jan 14 2007, 5:37 pm

imaonwheels

I don't see why we have to pick which is more important!

hadasa

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 3:59 am

amother wrote:

OP - I certainly understand your frustration, and I definitely think the situation needs to be dealt with.
However - something in this post really bugged me, and it took a while until I realized what.

As a child, I was often given the message "Even though you're good at a,b, and c, that's not worth anything, since you're so bad at x, y, z." I consider this a very unfair way of using a child's good points against him.
The children certainly need to be taught Ahavas Yisrael and respect for their classmates. But why should that negate the importance of their Davening? Let them get credit where it's due, and constructive criticism in those areas where necessary.

(whether Shukkeling is really a sign of Kavannah is a separate topic)

shopaholic

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 11:00 am

I would definitely stress both to my kids. They aren't in the same catgory so kids should be makpid in both. DS often gets nachas notes from his Rebbe & unfortunately everytime the "Ahavas Yisroel" box isn't checked, but davening is. Sad