Censorship of non-Jewish Books

gryp

Thu, Mar 09 2006, 11:09 am

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GR, what do you think about the English language children's books, like the ones from Merkaz, HaChai, Artscroll? Do you think, after reading those with them, they will be interested in reading Yiddish or LHK?

of course they wont want to.
which is why my goal is to get them fluent in yiddish/hebrew books before they are introduced to english books.
I havent bought a single english book yet for my kids. they are still young for reading, but the baby books ive invested in are only Yiddish ones so far.

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I used to translate them into Yiddish when reading

we try and do that with the english books people have given us as presents.

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And since reading is introduced further down the line,(Alef Bais in kindergarten, kriah in Pre-1-A) it's a long time to wait

way too long. Rolling Eyes

my two year old could join Pre1A for their kriah sessions Rolling Eyes

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But generally, the language you read in, is the one that motivates them to want to learn how to read, right

I dont know, but ill experiment with it and see what happens.
for now my two year old likes to "read" Yimei Chabad and I tell him what the pictures are. he finds the different Rebbeim and points them out to me. he also likes Pninei Geulah for the pictures. Smile

I dont see anything wrong with the English ones, and probably my kids will be reading them someday, I just prefer them to read in Yiddish and Hebrew so it reinforces their skills. especially the boys who will iyh be learning Chumash, Gemara, and Chassidus iyh in the future.

morningstar

Thu, Mar 09 2006, 4:06 pm

From and educational perspective, if you would like to confine as much reading as possible to Hebrew ( or Yiddish), your child should be immersed in a language community that speaks that language.

Without taking a position on where others should draw their lines (and my own approach has probably been closest to YY's)-- language is the tool of thought. It matters to me less that the primary language is English than that my child has excellent language skills ( reading, writing, listening, oral expression) in at least one language. Skills in the "second language" generally never surpass skills in the first language.

My disappointment in my son's education was not the failure to teach him to write in English ( yes, I taught him myself at home) but the fact that these skills were not developed in Hebrew or Yiddish either in any serious way.
I think this communication skills ahve suffered as a consequence.

TzenaRena

Thu, Mar 09 2006, 5:06 pm

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My disappointment in my son's education was not the failure to teach him to write in English ( yes, I taught him myself at home) but the fact that these skills were not developed in Hebrew or Yiddish either in any serious way.
I think this communication skills have suffered as a consequence.

The Frierdiker Lubavitcher Rebbe learned for one hour every day with a special melamed for Kesivah. So why don't our Yeshivos have this in the curriculim? (my son learns kesivah for an hour a week.)

However, about immersion in that language, for centuries, the Jewish population spoke Yiddish, and learned in lashon hakodesh, and produced Torah scholars of great stature, and I am not speaking about Gedolei Yisrael, but rather talmidim educated in Yeshivos. One can read the original (not translated but originally written in) Hebrew, letters written home by bochurim of that time, and they are masterpeices of literacy, with melitzah showing vast b'keius and fluency in TanaCH, Medrash, Halacha, everything.

THAT is the immersion, learning most of the day, and reviewing b'al peh etc. immersion in the language of learning.

People did NOT speak hebrew as in modern Israel, and their knowledge and literacy was superior!

But because of the reduced load, and our system of mass production, our children do not have this fluency.

morningstar

Thu, Mar 09 2006, 5:55 pm

I have relatives overseas who chose to speak to their children in English ( non-English speaking country) because they say that English is the "modern-day Yiddish". There is a massive amount of Judaica produced in English..and not being exposed to English robs children of these resources.
( The mom grew up speaking yiddish, but the fact is, almost no one else in her community does.)

Without getting into the discussion of which language "should" be our children's strongest language: they are going to be hampered, even in learningteaching limudei kodesh, if they do not have strong language skills in at least one language.

I am very concerned at the mediocre language skills that result from our system of schooling. I do know that whatever the primary language== there must be a broad range of challenging language experiences
I don't think one has to worry much about kids missing out on Junie B. Jones. But I do worry about kids that do not know how to enjoy poetry or symbolism or metaphor.

I think it shows up in their lack of ability to appreciate midrash, or many fo the beautiful Haftorahs that are read in shul.. Yes, in theory this can be taught within the context of Limudei Kodesh.But it generally is not.

morningstar

Thu, Mar 09 2006, 5:55 pm

Imaonwheels

Thu, Feb 15 2007, 6:50 am

TzenaRena wrote:

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To each (if I remember I'll give names)

Limits never cause a child to rebel, even those that are objectively over strict. A child has a triangle of influences home-school-friends. Inconsistancy in this triangle causes rebellion. That is why friends and school should reflect as closely as possible the level you want your child to reach and try to live up to that ordeal as well. That limiting chgildren causes them to go off is the totally unsupported consolation spread by those looking for a reason.

My children have varying reading levels. One of the worse readers loves to read the most and works hard. That all Jewish books are bad is another thing that if one doesn't agree he's a philistine. We are like those mothers who tasted the Gerbers and decided it wasn't tasty prompting manufacturers to add sugar and salt. Most of us grew up thinking a little romance and a little sophistication are the interest in a book. If you will survey great literature you will find nearly always one of 2 focal points, the ironic twist and character development. Both of these can be done in appropriate Jewish settings and have nothing to do w/appealing to the baser instincts. I would also try to develop a different yardstick than the nonJewish world of what good literature is. When children have absolutely no experience with European forms they don't miss them.

Yes, that was true to my literature classes and my favorite professor would have been proud. Your tastes are formed, your childrens are being formed and you have a lot to say whether they will retain their innocence while they are children. Innocence can be lost, unfortunately it can almost never be regained. When I worked for the child welfare aI saw the effect of loss of childhood innocence and I think we take this much too lightly.

rise above

Thu, Feb 15 2007, 7:07 am

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When I was teaching, I noticed a difference in the girls who read a lot; beyond obvious things like tending to write better than their classmates, they were deeper thinkers and more aware of complex emotions and situations. When analyzing current events, for example, they had deeper insights, were better able to evaluate possible motivations behind the various groups in a given conflict.... There was less of a tendency to view the world in terms of black and white, [gentile] = bad, etc. One of the major benefits of good fiction is that it helps kids enter into other people's heads and really understand differences in perspective. But of course there are many exceptions, and a kid certainly doesn't have to be an avid reader in order to gain these skills.

very true!