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Ratzon

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ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 4:32 pm

sarahd, mind telling me what to do to earn more books?
can I post the whole list??

LOL

But really - I owe u more than you can ever owe me.
thank you.

Tefila

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 5:29 pm

Now the truth what must one do to earn things from you Sarahd, and do you have an unlimited amount of whatever!

Quote:

maybe my green is your purple?

Motek yep my burgundy to my husband is his red, my orange is his red even som browns! so on and so forth Smile

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 5:33 pm

freilich, it takes many years do deserve a prise from sarahd.
And u got to be 15 when you start
(she started with projects to take home)

(Boy, sarahd & yehudis, how many years had flown by.......)

Tefila

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 5:36 pm

Quote:

And u got to be 15 when you start

And how old would you think I am.... does leap years count out of interest Twisted Evil

sarahd

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 5:39 pm

Freilich, I posted right here in this thread what you have to do to get stuff for me - you just have to be nice to me, and along come the presents!

Tefila

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 5:41 pm

Quote:

you just have to be nice to me,

Sarahd you drive a hard bargain..... aint worth it Twisted Evil

yehudis

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 6:28 pm

I am posting this here too:

From Rabbi Tatz's Living Inspired:

Quote:

A real change in the personality must be a change in ratzon...

[H]ow is a change made? How do you create a new desire?...

The solution is that one cannot cause a new ratzon to be manifest; by definition ratzon is the root cause, it cannot be brought about as as result of some other cause... You cannot do it; but Hashem can! A change of the deepest essense of the self, an elevation of that essense, is a gift! ... It comes from outside of the self -- a new level, a new sensitivity; that is the ultimate gift, that is the answer to prayer!

(Although one cannot voluntarily create a new desire, there is one thing which can be felt powerfully in a natural way: the desire to change! One cannot lie and say: I want this or that more selfless level, but one can say: Hashem, I really do want to have a higher ratzon, I want to feel a higher desire! I want to want it! One should pour one's heart out in the request to be elevated.)

sarahd

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 6:31 pm

freilich wrote:

Quote:

you just have to be nice to me,

Sarahd you drive a hard bargain..... aint worth it Twisted Evil

Whew - just saved a few bucks there!

yehudis

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 6:33 pm

Pirkei Avos 2:4:

Quote:

He [Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi] used to say: Treat His will as if it were your own will, so that He will treat your will as if it were His will. Nullify your will before His will, so that He will nullify the will of others before your will.

Motek

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 8:30 pm

"asei" is translated as "treat" rather than "make" ... interesting

yehudis

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 9:37 pm

The translation is from Artscroll.

It does sound kind of like a business deal, doesn't it? Any explanations of why it is phrased this way?

And to go back to the question I asked in a different thread: Where is the border between us and Hashem? So our will is who we are, but Hashem has the power to change it. So who are we really?

Motek

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 4:56 pm

yehudis wrote:

It does sound kind of like a business deal, doesn't it? Any explanations of why it is phrased this way?

perhaps because in the translator's opinion, perhaps based on certain commentaries (I wonder which), you can only "treat" it as though it's your will, but you can't "make" it into your will

okay, I inquired and was told as follows - that depending on the context, sometimes ratzon and taanug are spoken of as the deepest part of a person, and sometimes it's as I posted, they are kochos of the neshama and not the etzem. Either way, a person can definitely change his own ratzon which is why I started the other thread in this (Judaism) section on Really Wanting, because ain davar ha'omed bifnei ha'ratzon (nothing stands in the way of your will)

Quote:

And to go back to the question I asked in a different thread: Where is the border between us and Hashem? So our will is who we are, but Hashem has the power to change it. So who are we really?

I repeated your question to someone knowledgeable and got an appreciative smile, I.e. they liked the question(s)

yehudis - you know what you need to do ... Wink

yehudis

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 5:23 pm

Motek wrote:

yehudis wrote:

It does sound kind of like a business deal, doesn't it? Any explanations of why it is phrased this way?

perhaps because in the translator's opinion, perhaps based on certain commentaries (I wonder which), you can only "treat" it as though it's your will, but you can't "make" it into your will

I actually meant the orginal Hebrew version. Even if you translate it as "make," it still sounds like a business deal. But I found an answer -- Maharal, Derech Chaim. It's long, but here's a brief summary, as I understand it:

There are two things that a person needs: 1) to have everything he/she lacks; 2) to be protected from people who might take away what he/she already has and thus leave the person lacking. The mishna is addressing both in its two halves.

The first half, "make His will as your will so that He will make your will like His will," is talking about ahavas Hashem -- loving G-d, because when one loves Hashem with all one's heart, their ratzon becomes connected with Hashem's ratzon, and thus, their ratzon becomes part of Hashem's ratzon. (I am not exactly sure what this means, but that's what he says.)

The second half, "nullify your will before His will so that He will nullify the will of others before your will," is taking about yiras Hashem -- fearing G-d, because when one fears Hashem, even if they want to sin, they won't be able to sin, and thus sin won't be part of their ratzon, but only Hashem's ratzon will be part of their ratzon.

And if a person has both love of Hashem and fear of Hashem, these two are enough to complete everything that needs to be completed. Then the person's ratzon and Hashem's ratzon become one, and as Maharal says, these are very deep things.

yehudis

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 5:42 pm

Motek wrote:

okay, I inquired and was told as follows - that depending on the context, sometimes ratzon and taanug are spoken of as the deepest part of a person, and sometimes it's as I posted, they are kochos of the neshama and not the etzem.

Thanks. So why the difference?

Quote:

Either way, a person can definitely change his own ratzon which is why I started the other thread in this (Judaism) section on Really Wanting, because ain davar ha'omed bifnei ha'ratzon (nothing stands in the way of your will)

This quote says that once you have a ratzon, nothing stands in the way, but it doesn't say anything about changing it. Or are you referring to something else from that thread?

Quote:

I repeated your question to someone knowledgeable and got an appreciative smile, I.e. they liked the question(s)

And that was all??? No answer? (I actually asked someone before, and he sort of just said, "Why does it matter?" And before you say anything, it was a Lubavitcher.)

Quote:

yehudis - you know what you need to do ... Wink

What do I need to do?

yehudis

Fri, Mar 11 2005, 6:19 pm

More on the Maharal on Pirkei Avos:

http://www.torah.org/learning/......html

Motek

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 7:33 pm

Freilich wrote:

Sometimes one needs coercion to have the ratzon. Why are some divorced men forced even physically to give a get to their wife. To force them to want to!

it's a very interesting halacha

it's also brought in Rashi in this week's parsha, Vayikra, 1:3 where it's talking about a korbon that a person has to bring and Rashi says, we learn that we force him - but then this will be against his will? We learn that it's not against his will because he is forced until he says, rotzeh ani - I want!

how is this understood?

a Jew wants to do the right thing and remain connected with G-d, but sometimes the yetzer hara covers over a Jew's true ratzon

Motek

Tue, Apr 12 2005, 1:10 pm