"Punished by Rewards" - provocative!

healthymama

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 12:48 pm

Once we have established that positive reinforcement is necessary, we can argue about what type is best : abstract, tangible, etc. Morning star, the wife who wants her husband to show appreciation is looking for a reward just as much as the child who wants a treat, it is just that the forms of positive reinforcement are different.

If you want to discuss which forms of positive reinforcement are best, there is no question that more abstract, intrinsic forms ( praise, gratitude, relationship rewards) are considered "better" but that they also are weaker working in the short run. Finally, the abstract ones will not work if the child's ( or adult's) basic needs are not met. So if the child is hungry and you praise him for learning multiplication tables, this will not work adequately to encourage him to learn his tables. Same way, if we do not have enough money to pay the rent, we are not going to volunteer at our jobs just for praise and gratitude.

Most educators know that children usually start off with a tangible reinforcement and an abstract one ( praise and a sticker) and gradually they are weaned off the more tangible one and learn to complete what is expected of them for a simple " good job."

The same way a wife whose husband does not appreciate her effort might try to shape his behavior by giving him a very tangible reward the first time he says something positive ( kiss, going out for ice cream, etc.) paired with appreciation and then gradually fade away the tangible, leaving only the praise. I think, to some extent, we all do this, whether we realize it or not.

healthymama

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 12:52 pm

Quote:

In terms of being motivated through rewards.
Ill extend this to the success of Applied Behavioural Analysis (ABA therapy)
This is a type of Behavioural approach commonly used to work with kids on the Autistic Spectrum,to motivate them through external rewards thereby reinforcing the behaviours you would like.
The main critique of this behavioural method is:
1. SUPERFICIAL
2. Non generalizable
Ofcourse this is a contentious issue and many claim GREAT success.
There is always a yang for every ying so to speak.
So the opposite therapy used in the States, not yet widely in Canada, although research is currently being done at York University on the benefits of this other therapy, called "Floortime" therapy. This is Dr Stanley Greenspans model and works on motivating the child, not through reward like the behavioural but rather through the relationship.
Example the smile and laugh of the mom to child encourages him to move closer to her rather than the treat he will recieve. So its all about interaction, warmth, the relationship that is facilitated.
In Time magazine a few months back they discussed both these therapies back to back.

Floortime works on rewards just as much as ABA. The reward is that the child gets to play with whatever he or she was doing before. The "work" that the child is rewarded for is participating in a "circle-interaction" - some type of interacting with another person.

The smile of the mom will not usually encourage an autistic child to do anything because the main component of autism is a seeming indifference to relationships and social motivators.

morningstar

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 1:27 pm

Quote:

morningstar I think mali's point is that people still want "prizes" as they grow, just the form of the prize changes. Of course a wife will be insulted if her husband "pays" her $10 for supper ready on time, but a thank you or a smile or a word of appreciation are the prizes which are appropriate to a wife.

I can only speak for myself, Mummy of Six, but I don't consider "thank you" my reward for cooking dinner. Nor is the thank you the reason I cook dinner because 1) I think it is important and makes a house into a home 2) I think it brings happiness and good health to my family 3)it is a simple act of giving.

Quite apart of that, I like to be thanked for the things I do because 1)gratitude is an important Jewish value 2) I thiink that if people don't take the time to show appreciation, they start to undervalue the blessings in their life and often don't notice them at all 3) it creates a happier household 4) it is an act of caring and love toward me.

Thank you's become valuable in the context of an act that I ALREADY believe is worth doing; they are not the reward that make me want to do it.

Furthermore, thank you's are only valuable to me when I think they are sincere; not when used to manipulate. I have told my children that I want to be thanked for certain things and explained to them why; by doing so, I hope I have raised their awareness and appreciation for things they may not have noticed.. and indeed, they have responded by being more careful to express thanks. I am proud of them and pleased when they notice things that have been done for them-- but if I thought there sole intention was to 'reward' me for what I had done for them so that I would do it again, the thanks would not mean half as much to me.

Of course, there are results of our actions that we enjoy (just as my reward for teaching them to thank me is to have children who say thanks); the "punished by rewards" argument, however, is that when rewards are used to manipulate, in the long run they backfire.

LubavitchLeah

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 1:47 pm

Healthy mama says
"Floortime works on rewards just as much as ABA. The reward is that the child gets to play with whatever he or she was doing before. The "work" that the child is rewarded for is participating in a "circle-interaction" - some type of interacting with another person.

The smile of the mom will not usually encourage an autistic child to do anything because the main component of autism is a seeming indifference to relationships and social motivators"

The spectrum of Autism as you may know Healthy mama is VAST and WIDE, example "Asperger Syndrome" coined in the DSM in 1994 was latest addition to spectrum. Example, many kids on Spectrum have great eye contact , yet may have very deep sensory issues. Too many kids are now on the spectrum so infact the old diagnosis of Autism where the individual is in their own world so to speak and in your words appears indifferent to social motivators is apt for many but not all kids on this spectrum.
The aim of floortime is to MOTIVATE through the Social Interaction, which as I said before include, the partner showing emotions to child. So infact you are ultimately trying to create empathy and emotions rather than the reward beiong a toy as you said before. I have many many DVD's of Dr Stanley Greenspan in action with kids ranging from 2-6.
I have taken this off the website directly:

""Human relationships are critical to a child’s development. Human beings seem to be created to learn and grow in the context of relating to other humans; the brain and the mind simply don’t develop without being nurtured by human relationships. Without relationships, self-esteem, initiative, and creativity do not grow either. Even the more intellectual functions of the brain—logic, judgment, abstract thought—don’t develop without a constant source of relating.

Much of our best early learning happens through our relating to other people. An infant learns about cause and effect in part by dropping her spoon and watching it hit the floor. But she learns far more, and far earlier and more solidly, by smiling and getting a smile back. Later she learns by reaching out her arms and having Mommy pick her up. The pleasure that results from this learning is far more intense; the subtleties in Mommy’s response far more varied. This kind of rich and intense response, which becomes deeply etched in the child’s emotions, is possible only in human interactions. The child then applies this emotional lesson in causality (“I can make something happen”) to the physical world. That the emotional lesson comes first and is the basis for the cognitive lesson is opposite to the traditional view of cognition and learning. This insight is essential for mobilizing intellectual and emotional growth in children with special needs.

Through interactions, you can mobilize your child’s emotions in the service of his learning. Emotions make all learning possible. By interacting with your child in ways that capitalize on his emotions—by following his interests and motivations—you can help him climb the developmental ladder. You can help him want to learn how to attend to you; you can help him want to learn how to engage in a dialogue; you can inspire him to take initiative, to learn about causality and logic, to act to solve problems even before he speaks and moves into the world of ideas. As together you open and close many “circles of communication” (a back-and-forth communication between you and your child) in a row, you can help him connect his emotions and his intent with his behavior (such as pointing for a toy) and eventually with his words and ideas (“Give me that!”). In helping him link his emotions to his behavior and his words in a purposeful way, instead of learning by rote, you enable your child to begin to relate to you and the world more meaningfully, spontaneously, flexibly, and warmly. He gains a firmer foundation for advanced cognitive skills. Children with special needs require a tremendous amount of practice in linking their intent or emotions to their behavior and then to their words. Like a right-handed person learning to throw a curve ball with her left hand, they need to practice the skill over and over to master it. Floortime is your child’s practice time. Each time you get down on the floor and interact—spontaneously, joyfully, following your child’s interests and motivations—you help him build that link between emotion and behavior, and eventually words, and in doing so move forward on his journey up the developmental ladder. ""

Motek

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 8:45 pm

morningstar wrote:

Mali, I am not sure that unappreciated wives are looking for prizes. They are looking for a caring, sensitive relationship at home. That is something that takes time to build, and that prizes can't fix.

A wife does not want a husband who tallies up how many things she made for Shabbos that week and says "thanks" if it three or less, "thanks a lot" if it is between three and five", and "wow, thank you, you did a really great job this week" if it is five or more or includes his favorite food.
She is not looking for a reward system, she is looking for someone who genuinely is aware of what she is doing.

Neither will it help if she decides to give HIM prizes for learning to say thank you-- a smile for a thanks, a "your welcome" for a thanks a lot, and an extra serving of dessert if he says "wow, thank you, you did a really great job this week." She does not want to feel that she "bought" his thanks, she wants it to be freely given.

If a mother of a new baby is having trouble getting supper on the time on time, she will be very happy if her husband talks to her about how he can help make things easier for her.. whether by coming home from work a bit earlier, taking care of the children as soon as he comes home, moving supper time a bit later.. ordering in the main dish for a month or two.. but she will feel deeply insulted and misunderstood if he offers her a prize such as ten dollars for each time she has supper on the table on time (and even angrier if this strategy does not work and he suggests a punishment for each time she is late).

Now, mind you,the wife may arrange to award herself with flowers on the table each time supper is ready on time, or some other such thing-- the reason this feels different is that she is in control of motivating herself, rather than being manipulated.

Mali, wives want appreciation (deep change), which is indicative of a caring relationship, but they don't want a "reward." Stars, or dollar bills, or candies thrown their way when they do what their husbands "want" would strike them as infantilizing and disrespectful.

As to getting paid for work-- work is an exchange, not a system of adults handing you rewards. Even at the most highly paid job, people want to be treated with respect, not yanked around like a trained seal.
Nobody just shows up and sits around all day until the boss offers a goody, and then jumps. The boss hires you because you have something to offer his business; you work because he has something to offer you-- and in a good work relationship, you both feel that you are being offered something of value. The work relationship will survive for as long as both of you feel you are getting a fair exchange for your contribution.

But I would not work for a boss who felt he was handing me a "reward" every time he handed me my pay check. Nor do I feel my pay check is a prize-- I feel that it is something I have earned. Neither would I hire an employee who sits around all day doing nothing until I offer a reward.

And pirkei avos tells us quite clearly not to be like the servants who serve their master on condition they will get a reward...

This is terrific morningstar. Smile

I don't usually quote an entire, long post but this one deserves to be copied and read again. Yes

Mali and chanab - if you read the thread I referred to on the previous page, the sichos of the Rebbe on this subject, you will see how the Rebbe responds to your question:
"How can we expect little children to do what's right without being rewarded?"

preview - he does NOT think they should be enticed with rewards

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 7:33 pm

roza wrote:

It is very difficult to function and be productive without anyone's recognition. That's why we see mothers and wives at home who are dysfunctional, unproductive, dissatisfied, unmotivated and easily depressed. While at school and at work they don't feel so because their efforts, study and work is being recognized and acknowledged, it's a part of school and work environment. There are lots of studies that demonstrate this.

This Imamother network helps to motivate stay at home mothers. On this site SAHMs repeatedly get encouragements and praise for their work, there is 'someone' out there who recognized what they are doing.

I think this is just A. K.'s idea: that when people become reliant on other's praise, rewards, and encouragement, it is hard to be self-motivating and self-directing. Perhaps one reason these mothers feel depressed, etc. is because they have had a very structured lifestyle (school/work/living at home with parent to tell one what to do) with a built-in reward system (grades, professional advancement, praise from authority figures) and when it is time for her to rely on herself and do things just because they need to get done, it's hard. I know this was/is true for me. I was always a good student and spent most of my life in school to age 20. I derived much of my self-worth from my grades and thinking that I was "intelligent", "smart", or whatever. When I started working I congratulated myself that I had such a nice job and that it was a prestigious field, etc. When I got married and became pregnant, I knew that being with my baby and taking care of my home were the most important thing I could be doing. Once I was doing it for a while, however, I felt a little sad and worthless. I think that is because I never truly learned to operate without external motivation. Forms of encouragement like imamother can help, but I can't see how this site would keep a mother going unless she had her own internal feeling of accomplishment. In the same way, I want appreciation from my husband because that is part of having good relationship with him, not because I do what I do *for* him.

How can a person do something that she knows is right, but that others do not value (or value enough), if it does not come from inside? I think this is the point of A. K. book, that we want children to develop their own internal motivation and sense of right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable. I do not use rewards (maybe I should say I try not to) with my children. I do try to notice when they do the right things. This means that I describe what they did. For example, if my daughter gets dressed in the morning quickly without fuss, I might say, "You got dressed quickly without any help," instead of "What a good girl you are."

The ultimate goal in Torah and doing mitzvos is to do them "lishmo", for their own sake, not to "become a rav".

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 7:37 pm

roza wrote:

JRKmommy wrote:

article by Alfie Kohn:

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

She stole all these ideas from Montessori approach to children and teaching.
Any good montessori school avoids praise for all the reasons mentioned. it has been around for many years already and it works.

There is big BUT. In order to be able to stop praising children you need to develop this high level of respect to a child that is characteristic to montessori educators and believe in child's great potential, his ability to teach himself, to help himself without any help from adult, his ability to enjoy what he is doing and so on.

First off, A. Kohn is a *man*. Very Happy

I don't know if I'd say he "stole" the ideas, but it is true that they have been out there before. I'm into the Montessori method as well. I don't agree with everything that A. Kohn has to say, but her makes a good deal of sense to me.

JRKmommy

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 10:58 am

I'll answer my own question on the praise article:

I have read Dr. Montesori's handbook and do understand the logic of the approach from an educational standpoint - it makes sense that we should allow young children to find what genuinely interests them.

For parenting and moral education though - I have some different thoughts.

Quote from the article:

1. Manipulating children. Suppose you offer a verbal reward to reinforce the behavior of a two-year-old who eats without spilling, or a five-year-old who cleans up her art supplies. Who benefits from this? Is it possible that telling kids they’ve done a good job may have less to do with their emotional needs than with our convenience?

Rheta DeVries, a professor of education at the University of Northern Iowa, refers to this as "sugar-coated control." Very much like tangible rewards – or, for that matter, punishments – it’s a way of doing something to children to get them to comply with our wishes. It may be effective at producing this result (at least for a while), but it’s very different from working with kids – for example, by engaging them in conversation about what makes a classroom (or family) function smoothly, or how other people are affected by what we have done -- or failed to do. The latter approach is not only more respectful but more likely to help kids become thoughtful people.

Call me crazy, but I do think that parents are entitled to make rules and generally encourage children to act in a specific way. I said, "good hand-holding!" a lot to my dd when we lived on a busy downtown street, and she held my hand and didn't get hit by a car. Perhaps this was "manipulative" and her spirit may have naturally chosen to run free. Whatever - as her mother, it was my job to use my maturity and good sense to keep her safe, and praise was the most positive way to do so.

My ds was born 21 mos after dd#2. At that age, I couldn't "engage her in conversation" about how her baby brother felt about being bonked on the head. I could, however, demonstrate "gentle touch", and hug her, smile and say "great gentle touch!" when she was gentle with the baby. Poor kid - "manipulated" by me into playing nicely with her brother. I further manipulated her by enthusiastically praising her and writing "mitzvah notes" for cheering her brother up when he was crying, showing concern for him, and having fun with him. I never freed her little spirit to discover the joys of intense sibling fighting, but molded her early so that she automatically learned to love and play well with her brother.

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 1:11 pm

I think that recognition IS sometimes the reward. A reward doesnt have to be an item, it can be the recognition of the act, which will enforce the child's desire to continue doing the same...

Small example - little kids were playing with blocks and my daughter wanted more- she asked the girl next to her if she could have 4 blocks.
The girl thought and said "only 1" . We took the block and said thank you - what a mitzvah-to share...less than a second later she said here you can have another one...we took it, said thank you, and said Wow, a second mitzvah...This continued 3 more times until I told her to keep the rest of the blocks - it was enough sharing!!

The next time this child is asked to share, if she has any thoughts, it wont be about the reward/treat that she got for sharing, but the idea that she did a mitzvah - now she can feel good about the act without anyone elses help (not that we only do mitzvos to feel good about ourselves ....)

JRKmommy

Fri, Apr 20 2007, 12:57 pm

I read the article.

First, the example at the beginning of the article deals with a super-bright kid, not an average one.

It is true that when you are a brighter-than-average kid, you can also get a bit lazy. I was like that. I learned that I could read faster than most of the other kids, grasp the math sooner, and do well with less studying. I got used to "coasting" along. When I finally hit the point that real work was required, it was far more of a shock.

It can also be a bit embarassing if there is also an area of weakness. Both dh and I have this - our verbal intelligence is far higher than our performance intelligence, which in plain English means that we have no trouble understanding the New England Journal of Medicine, but panic if we need to read basic instructions to assemble something. When you're used to excelling and getting respect for your abilities, struggling with something that others find easy isn't so appealing.

I don't think that the praise for being smart is the problem. Rather, I think that lack of opportunity to appreciate the experience of really putting forth effort and accomplishing something is the factor. I'm never going to like fixing things as much as I like reading and writing. However, I did finally get to the point of gaining satisfaction from putting things together, because for me, it was a tough accomplishment.