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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Are our schools demanding too much conformity and uniformit
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 1:40 pm
I think boys and girls both should be pushed to reach their potential.

Btw, in the days of old, there were two types of Chasidim in Lubavitch: those who mastered incredible amounts in learning, and those who mastered incredible amounts in working on themselves.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 2:13 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
Uniformly by frumkeit or academic ability or 2 hetergenous classes where the stronger girls are expected to help and be an example for the weak.


I was one of the stronger girls who was expected to help and be an example for the weak students. I really resented this. I was there to learn, not to tutor weaker students.

I think it's unfair to expect thousands of dollars from parents to then turn their children into mini-teachers who aren't able to learn up to their potential because they are in a dumbed down class expected to teacher alef beis to the slower girls.
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shayna82




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 2:17 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
Shayna-what about when there are ten such students in the class? How can a teacher sit next to ten students? And how can a teacher sit period? What does the teacher do while she's teaching in front of the class?

It just doesn't make sense.


what is the definition of a teacher if she isnt someone who tries to teach each kid on their level???

there is such a thing as modifying homework, classwork to fit the needs of an individual student. bad example with the ten kids, your just proving my point more... all the more so with ten kids verus 25, a teacher can forsure costume make her teaching to fit the needs of the class.

ah- and if someone has add, adhd, dyslexia-- those are issues that a child's parents and principal should be dealing with on the side.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 2:22 pm
shayna82 wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
Shayna-what about when there are ten such students in the class? How can a teacher sit next to ten students? And how can a teacher sit period? What does the teacher do while she's teaching in front of the class?

It just doesn't make sense.


what is the definition of a teacher if she isnt someone who tries to teach each kid on their level???

there is such a thing as modifying homework, classwork to fit the needs of an individual student. bad example with the ten kids, your just proving my point more... all the more so with ten kids verus 25, a teacher can forsure costume make her teaching to fit the needs of the class.

ah- and if someone has add, adhd, dyslexia-- those are issues that a child's parents and principal should be dealing with on the side.


Why is it better to modify the homework and classwork and not just have separate classes altogether? The child still feels singled out and different.

Why does ten kids prove your point? You said the teacher should sit with and help the kid, how can she help ten students at one time? How can she explain a pasuk to the whole class with two (more like three or four) varying levels?

How would this work in high school, when there's significantly more lecturing and less classwork?

Also, to be really practical: if a teacher is making next to nothing as a salary, I'm not sure that lots of teachers are running to create individualized learning plans for tens of students. It would be much more practical for her (and make more sense overall) for there just to be separate classes.
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shayna82




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 2:29 pm
every kid is on a different level. even if there was a seperate classroom for kids who dont get the psukim one two three four times after being explained, they are still gonna have to be individualy helped out. hence, the need fo rmore teachers and more singling out...

I dont agree with that method, but hey...
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:14 pm
I am not so sure that every bocher who is sent to a vocational yeshiva feels down about it. I have seen some boys who want to return to those yeshivas year after year and are proud of their accomplishments there. These won't usually be white shirt and black hat all the time bochrim, but they do aspire to live their lives Jewishly.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:19 pm
Quote:
How would this work in high school, when there's significantly more lecturing and less classwork?

I know high schools where the entire high school is divided up into 4 learning groups according to their learning ability.
I've been in classes- Chumash and Navi- where the class is split up according to ability. Each group has a specific workbook prepared by the teacher in the beginning of the year that guides them through the Chumash/Navi/Halacha. The learning/teaching is done by the students themselves, the teacher is there for questions only. No lecturing, ever. Not only did we learn MORE, but we learned BETTER.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:30 pm
That is a good system, when the system is self-learning.

In lots of schools, the teacher lectures and there is no or little self-learning. In such a system, dividing the class doesn't really work so well.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 4:02 pm
1. I believe that if 10 kids are not getting it the teacher should be reevaluated.

2. Its not how many times you explain it. It is about finding why the child is not getting it and help him with his weaknesses. A good teacher will put most of the effort in figuring out why the kid is not getting it. Somethings are very fixable if caught early.

3. Material can be skillfully adapted for each kid w/o embarassment. A whole other class where smart class and dumb class might become regular ways of referring cannot.

In israel in Chabad there are around 9 regular yeshivas. The level of learning in them is individual, as well as the level of behavior. Each kid chooses with his parents where he will go. There is absolutely no expectation that brothers will attend the same yeshiva and in many cases it is not encouraged for various social reasons. The hanhalot of the chedarim help the parents and boy choose the yeshiva suited for him, not the closest and not necessarily the most prestigious. Some will emphasize lamdus, some mivtzoim, etc. Some nigleh and some chassidus. Some are meant to challenge and some are low pressure. It depends on the boys that year and the style and hashkafa of the RY.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 4:08 pm
GR wrote:
I think boys and girls both should be pushed to reach their potential.

Btw, in the days of old, there were two types of Chasidim in Lubavitch: those who mastered incredible amounts in learning, and those who mastered incredible amounts in working on themselves.


Davar yadua, it is impossible to be an oved if one is not a maskil and impossible to be a maskil if one is not an oved. Though it is said that the Frierdiker Rebbe said he would give all of the maskilim in Krementchug for one katzav in Nevel (a town of ovdim). The emphasis on academics doesn't fit with that. However one should do avoda and learn to the best of one's ability and the yeshiva should bring you to that.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 4:09 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
1. I believe that if 10 kids are not getting it the teacher should be reevaluated.


How can a teacher be expected to teach a class of 25 when the class is divided in levels within the class?
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 4:12 pm
There are plenty of good practical tips for doing just that in a book called The Art of Teaching, published by Feldheim. I do not remember right now the name of the author but she is from Canada.
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Estee2




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 14 2007, 11:16 am
Many times, the 10 that you mentioned that 'don't get it'
have come through the grades for the past 3 years
already behind from 1st grade - NO tutoring...

So, it is not because of that teacher in 4th grade that the
10 students 'don't get it'.

It's been many years 'in the making'.

I teach, and it is very difficult when the parents do not cooperate
to do what is best for their children. Sad
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 16 2007, 12:12 am
Unless the school routinely pushes up kids they shouldn't just to pass them through then what you said doesn't make sense. I have worked with hanhalot. If you see kids progressing fine and get a lot of complaints all of a sudden from a teacher that she has a tough class or complaints from parents that the kids don't understand, it does not hurt to see where the glitch is.
I am not, in most cases talking about a formal reevaluation on the record, just observation.

10 kids out of 25 having trouble because of their own learning ability can happen but it is not the your usual situation. I am not saying the teacher is bad. And sometimes parents can't deal with their child's difficulty and blame the teacher.

Also I would see if this happens consistently (1st year teachers are monitored anyway).
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 16 2007, 10:05 am
Quote:
Unless the school routinely pushes up kids they shouldn't just to pass them

Sure they do. I see it happen all the time.
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