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Hasidic Jews Watch "Fiddler on the Roof" For the First Time
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Lita




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 10:46 am
On PBS a number of years ago they had a version of this movie in yiddish.
It was from the 1920's I believe and all the actors spoke yiddish (english subtitles on screen). Perhaps "Fiddler on the roof was based on this earlier movie?
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 11:28 am
I also am completely missing the point of the clip.

The movie/story has nothing to do with Chassids as it's an adaptation of a stage play based on Sholem Aleichem's stories of regular 19th Century Jews in the shtetl.

I have no idea what would be so shocking to the guys who are watching it since my assumption is that anyone who is willing to be filmed for a gag sketch is not a sequestered person with no knowledge of anything.

And aside from the prohibition of hearing females sing, I'm not sure what exactly would be so shocking about the storyline. Surely everyone is aware that there was and is assimilation and intermarriage. It's not as if the play is a propaganda extolling the benefits of assimilation - it was an adaption of Aleichem's stories which were somewhat realistic portrayals of life in a shtetl in the 19th century.

Perhaps I am missing the point?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 12:59 pm
Most of us are too close to the subject to get it. It's like when some TV show sets an episode in BP, with female extras pairing turbans and pants or the men striding off to work in their shtreimlech. The wrongness of the trees prevents us from noticing the forest.

The trope of Fiddler on the Roof as a stand-in for authentic Jewish observance and identity is an oldie-but-goodie. I remember discussing it in college in the early 80s, and a quick Google search shows that there are plenty of more contemporary reiterations of the discussion.

In short, the thesis is that as Jews assimilated into the American landscape, Fiddler became one of the primary links to the observance of the past. Granted, a highly sanitized and sentimental link, but increasingly the closest that many American Jews would come to witnessing a Jewish lifestyle that encompassed more than bagels and lox. I could go on, but if you're interested in this sort of analysis, there are plenty of online articles discussing it.

So the point of the clip, I think, is to show people who have genuine Jewish identities reacting to this touchstone of ersatz Jewish identity.

I'm assuming it's meant as a poke at non-observant, assimilated Jews for whom Fiddler evokes fond memories and feelings of belonging, as if to say, "Here are real Jews, living Jewish lives, who find the icon of your Jewish identity to be a joke."
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 1:09 pm
Fox wrote:
In short, the thesis is that as Jews assimilated into the American landscape, Fiddler became one of the primary links to the observance of the past. Granted, a highly sanitized and sentimental link, but increasingly the closest that many American Jews would come to witnessing a Jewish lifestyle that encompassed more than bagels and lox. I could go on, but if you're interested in this sort of analysis, there are plenty of online articles discussing it.


It always struck me as having the opposite effect.It tried to convince those who assimilated that they did the right thing because frumkeit is nothing more than a tradition of unknown origins. Tevye seems only superficially frum because he has no idea of any reason why anyone should be frum. He happens to feel very strongly about following tradition but that is it. And he says that explicitly with:"You may ask .How did this tradition start? I don't know. But it is a tradition.."
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 1:11 pm
Fox wrote:
I'm assuming it's meant as a poke at non-observant, assimilated Jews for whom Fiddler evokes fond memories and feelings of belonging, as if to say, "Here are real Jews, living Jewish lives, who find the icon of your Jewish identity to be a joke."


THIS.

As anyone who follows my posts around knows, I've been working on various BY high school musical plays all over the US for about a decade now. Sometimes original plays, sometimes "kosherized" versions of Broadway musicals.

My Conservative Jewish aunt is baffled why I've never done Fiddler as one of my shows. "It's the quintessential Jewish musical!"

Um, the song "Tradition" is offensive to me as an observant Jew because it pretty much bangs you over the head with "I don't know why we're doing this... TRADITION!" While somewhat tragic, the assimilation of the daughters, the moving of the mechitzah at the wedding etc. is mostly heroic and a bittersweet symbol of the end of an era.

I'm not going to say that every person in the shtetl was a talmid chochom, or that nobody assimilated, but as a frum person, I choose not to glorify this portrayal of Judaism.
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dee's mommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 1:22 pm
Yes, I think that a lot of stereotypes and feelings of nostalgia come from the musical, both for Jews and non Jews alike. When you really think about it, are there other mainstream films about religious Jews? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Because others are lacking, this is what people in general have to go on to learn about religious Jews (which they assume means chassidic Jews.) Sure, there are other smaller films, such as Hester Street from the 1970s, and the odd Israeli film, but this is the one the most people know. (In it's favour, the music is really good.)

Someone mentioned an earlier film in Yiddish. It is called Tevye, and it is from the 1930s. I managed to see it a few months ago (it was on Youtube, but unfortunately was taken down.) I have to say that I enjoyed that one so much more than the musical, and I definitely have a lot to say about that one. It is closer to the original stories, and I think it was based on a stageplay that Sholom Alechem wrote based on his stories.

If you have an opportunity to see this, please do, as I think there is more authenticity to it.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 1:44 pm
leah233 wrote:
It always struck me as having the opposite effect.It tried to convince those who assimilated that they did the right thing because frumkeit is nothing more than a tradition of unknown origins. Tevye seems only superficially frum because he has no idea of any reason why anyone should be frum. He happens to feel very strongly about following tradition but that is it. And he says that explicitly with:"You may ask .How did this tradition start? I don't know. But it is a tradition.."


Right. That's the point.

Fiddler allows a non-observant, assimilated Jew a way to feel "Jewish" while actually reinforcing the desirability of assimilation, presenting it as an inevitability rather than a conscious choice.

All of us are familiar with the story of the Baal Shem Tov's forest meditation: later leaders only recalled how to perform certain elements of the avodah; as time passed, all details of the avodah were lost, and eventually, telling the story of the avodah had to suffice.

Non-observant, assimilated Jews in America lost the connection to the observances and rituals of Torah a hundred years ago. They no longer know the reasons for any of those rituals. They lost their sense of belonging to klal Yisroel, even when "community" was nothing more than a Jewish country club formed because they weren't allowed to play golf with non-Jews. The bubbes who occasionally baked challah or some delicacy from the old country are long dead. Zionistic leanings are being stripped by children or grandchildren with BDS sympathies.

All they can do is tell the story.
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wiki




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 2:41 pm
Fox wrote:
Right. That's the point.

Fiddler allows a non-observant, assimilated Jew a way to feel "Jewish" while actually reinforcing the desirability of assimilation, presenting it as an inevitability rather than a conscious choice.


I think it's open to other interpretations than just that one. The way I read Fiddler, it is not a celebration of the traditions losing, but a nostalgic lament that they inevitably did lose. Tevya does not win in the play, but the viewer is supposed to feel that his loss is tragic. The viewer is supposed to want the daughters to break tradition while at the same time wanting Tevya to be able to stand up for his traditions and maintain them with his children. When he can't--well, Act II is supposed to be really sad.

But I'll agree that the play present modernization as an inevitability.

And let's face it, for most of the Jews who lived in Russia in 1905, tradition did lose for them or for their descendants. Some only modernized as much as Tzeitel and Motel; some much more than that. Many Jews who were poor and lived in villages loved their traditions as much as Tevye did, and when they immigrated to America, they did assimilate, because they had no idea why had observed the traditions they observed. Just as Tevye cannot distinguish minhag from halacha from local Anatevka culture, most traditional Jews who moved to America in that decade could not. And most of them/their children really did assimilate for that very reason.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 3:41 pm
I'll tell you what this clip reminded me of: DH's very frum friend was once in a situation where he got to watch a show on TV while sitting next to DH. He was adorable in his cluelessness. He kept on making comments pointing out how "they" are making a play and trying to convince you (the viewer) that it's really happening. And he's so smart because he sees right through it! He went on and on like this right down to the commercials. LOL It was so hysterical.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 3:53 pm
In the book Chava leaves Fedka and comes back to her family when they have to leave their home. Shpritze commits suicide. Beylka marries a rich man she doesn't love. Golda dies.

A musical is a different genre; don't fault it for being what it is.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 6:07 pm
Perhaps I am being obtuse but a Broadway musical is certainly not to be taken with any degree of seriousness. It bears as much resemblance to reality as any popular depiction of lawyers, doctors or any other group does.

If the point of filming a clip is to show how Hassidic Jews respond to a work of fiction that nobody takes seriously, I am still not understanding the point.

The lyrics of Tradition - with very little change - could have been used for virtually any other 19th Century European immigrant population. I certainly never took it as any kind of deep reading of the level of frumkeit of the people depicted on stage.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 03 2016, 4:47 pm
Now what is this?
Something similar? See if you can spot some of the errors!

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