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Trump is a sick egotistical and dangerous maniac!
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 07 2016, 10:10 pm
wondergirl wrote:
First, I never said that illegal aliens are murderers or rapists or equal to that. I did ask why they are above the law, why it's okay for them to break the law and not get punished for it like American citizens who get punished in a variety of ways depending on the law they break (read my entire comment about it upthread).

But you say it is sometimes moral to break the law.

Okay, let's look at it from that perspective:

Scenario 1-

Judge, I am sorry I did not have the money to pay the rent, my husband is in jail and I am struggling financially even though I am working but it is not enough. Please, judge. I beg you do not evict me. It is cold outside and I have nowhere to go with the kids. They will freeze to death. Please help. I know I promised to pay the rent last time but I was not able to get it in time. I am an American citizen, I pay taxes and everything, I am not a rapist or a murderer. Please be moral and don't evict me.

Judge-Sorry, I have to follow the law. You did not pay rent, you are evicted.

Scenario 2-

I am starving and don't have money to buy food. The grocery store at the corner has food. I know it is wrong to steal but the laws are meant to be broken especially for moral reasons. And surely the store owner won't mind if I help myself to food without paying for it. I mean, he has plenty of other food that his customers can pay for so there is no reason for me to follow the law. Besides, I am not a rapist or murderer so it's moral for me to steal food if I am hungry.

Steals food, gets arrested. Has to do community service.

Scenario 3-

Please officer, I beg you. Do not give me a parking ticket. I had nowhere else to park. And rules are meant to be broken, Marina said so and I did it for a moral reason since I was visiting my sick grandma. I am not a rapist or a murderer please don't punish me for breaking the law.

Cop-Sorry, I gotta do my job. You broke the law, you get a ticket for it.


Marina, you also say that illegal aliens use fake Social Security numbers to work on the books and pay taxes. How do they find these illegal SS#'s? And how does it not fall under identity fraud, yet another criminal offense? If an American citizen would commit identity fraud, then would they not be punished for it? American citizens are punished for breaking the law, why are illegal aliens not being punished for breaking the law (first immigration law, then tax laws, then possibly identity fraud, etc)?

Are illegal aliens above the law?


The first few scenarios are the reason we have Section 8 and foodstamps and laws preventing immediate eviction of tenants who cannot pay rent. Because we, as a society, don't want to be in the position of criminalizing poverty. And many people, including me, think we need to develop a better immigration policy that doesn't criminalize trying to escape a horrible place and give your child a better chance.

But yes, stealing is a crime and speeding is a crime and being in the country illegally is a crime. That's why illegal aliens get deported every day. As to why not all illegal aliens are being deported- that's also no different than the discretion that every prosecutor and judge has when faced with a person who stole food because she was starving or couldn't pay the rent. Prosecutors don't prosecute every case given to them, not by a long shot. And even when they do, the criminal ends up pleading to a lower offense much of the time. Judges likewise don't issue the same sentence for the same crime; they may even not issue any sentence at all or just "time served" if that's what they think fits best.

There's a lot of discretion in how crime is dealt with, and every day people are coming up with more creative solutions. In many states, for example, there are specialized drug courts who exclusively deal with drug addicts and help them get the assistance they need instead of going to prison.

You seem to see the world in black and white: the illegal alien is a criminal! Criminals have to be punished! All illegal aliens must be punished and if not, that means we need to release every American from jail because otherwise we are hypocrites!

But the world is not black and white at all. There are many shades of gray.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 07 2016, 10:27 pm
seeker wrote:
I don't understand the references to free speech. Trump believes in free speech for exactly one person: himself. Any time someone says anything to disagree with him, he shouts them down, throws insults, and otherwise makes you pretty much not want to bother disagreeing with him again.

I mentioned before that I see some similarity to Obama, and this is another one. Obama seemed to be preventing the press from saying anything bad about him, and Trump uses intimidation to shut down opposition. Of course our speech is still technically free but really I wouldn't call Trump an advocate of free anything. His inability to hear other points of view should disqualify him from leading a democracy.


He has actually said that if president, he would intensify libel laws and make it much more difficult for journalists to criticize him. He has also made ominous threats towards politicians who have criticized him, such as John McCain and Paul Ryan, saying things like "he should watch out," or " he'll pay for that." Really really scary. There is NO WAY that he will be a advocate of free speech if elected. He has made it clear how much he detests any kind of criticism and if given the power to do so, he will try to suppress it, as seen by his reactions to protestors at his rallies.
Are people really so stupid as to believe that Donald Trump saying whatver Donald trump wants somehow translates to Donald Trump being a protector of other people's free speech?? shock shock
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 07 2016, 10:33 pm
wondergirl wrote:
So how does it work? A person makes a deal with a smuggler to pay $50,000 to be smuggled into America illegally. They agree to an installment payment plan and the person is smuggled in successfully. Now the person does not have the money to pay the smuggler so the smuggler goes to the person's family and tortures, rapes and/or murders them.
Then the American media turns around and uses that as a way to evoke sympathy from American citizens--look how dangerous it is to live in that country, look at how high the crime rate is. But the media neglects to tell the American public the real reason why it happened, because someone decided to break the American laws in the first place.

I can't believe that Americans actually believe that crime is rampant in those countries. Maybe if the illegal aliens wouldn't be breaking American laws or promise money to smugglers when they have no way to pay it, then "crime" wouldn't be so high.

But how can anyone call these illegal aliens moral human beings when they commit all these crimes (breaking immigration laws, identity theft, tax fraud, etc)? And instead of taking responsibility for their actions, they present themselves as the victims which is absolutely despicable and atrocious.

It's just shocking that people would defend and even justify all this criminal behavior.

http://cis.org/IdentityTheft


You realize you are actually blaming the victims here. Hey you illegal aliens! If you wouldn't be trying to leave your country for a better life, your family wouldn't have been tortured, duh and overall crime rates would be lowered, duh.

Your posts come across as very very simplistic and uninformed. It doesn't seem that you have done any in depth research into either the dangers of the countries where the immigrants are coming from or the benefit of illegal aliens to America's financial system. It also sounds like you've never actually met an illegal alien or really read about one.

Here are some links

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06......html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/a......html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yo.....tory/
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 07 2016, 10:39 pm
wondergirl wrote:
How exactly do the smugglers plan to collect payment if the people they helped smuggle disappear in America (I.e switch their address, phone number, or move states etc)?


https://www.ice.gov/factsheets.....cking

https://www.aclu.org/human-tra.....tates
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 07 2016, 10:56 pm
marina wrote:
You realize you are actually blaming the victims here. Hey you illegal aliens! If you wouldn't be trying to leave your country for a better life, your family wouldn't have been tortured, duh and overall crime rates would be lowered, duh.

Your posts come across as very very simplistic and uninformed. It doesn't seem that you have done any in depth research into either the dangers of the countries where the immigrants are coming from or the benefit of illegal aliens to America's financial system. It also sounds like you've never actually met an illegal alien or really read about one.

Here are some links

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06......html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/a......html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yo.....tory/


The plight of people suffering and living in poverty all around the world is terrible.

But do you not see the dangers of open borders?
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 07 2016, 11:09 pm
marina wrote:
The first few scenarios are the reason we have Section 8 and foodstamps and laws preventing immediate eviction of tenants who cannot pay rent. Because we, as a society, don't want to be in the position of criminalizing poverty. And many people, including me, think we need to develop a better immigration policy that doesn't criminalize trying to escape a horrible place and give your child a better chance.

But yes, stealing is a crime and speeding is a crime and being in the country illegally is a crime. That's why illegal aliens get deported every day. As to why not all illegal aliens are being deported- that's also no different than the discretion that every prosecutor and judge has when faced with a person who stole food because she was starving or couldn't pay the rent. Prosecutors don't prosecute every case given to them, not by a long shot. And even when they do, the criminal ends up pleading to a lower offense much of the time. Judges likewise don't issue the same sentence for the same crime; they may even not issue any sentence at all or just "time served" if that's what they think fits best.

There's a lot of discretion in how crime is dealt with, and every day people are coming up with more creative solutions. In many states, for example, there are specialized drug courts who exclusively deal with drug addicts and help them get the assistance they need instead of going to prison.

You seem to see the world in black and white: the illegal alien is a criminal! Criminals have to be punished! All illegal aliens must be punished and if not, that means we need to release every American from jail because otherwise we are hypocrites!

But the world is not black and white at all. There are many shades of gray.


Well haleluka this is the first sensible thing you have said in this thread
And I say that as someone who is a fan of your posts 90% of the time
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 12:22 am
Laiya wrote:
The plight of people suffering and living in poverty all around the world is terrible.

But do you not see the dangers of open borders?


Yes. I don't think open borders is possible. This just means that there is no simple solution and that we have to work on improving our immigration policy. But that has to come with an awareness of those people's plight, not an insistence that they all come here to make money and aren't really crime victims, etc.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:04 am
MiracleMama wrote:
I don't care for Trump and I have no plans to vote for Trump but the comparisons to Hitler are unfounded and offensive. I watched the clip in the OP. I can't begin to imagine how anyone can draw the comparison.


http://popchassid.com/responsi.....tler/
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:39 am
marina wrote:

But the world is not black and white at all. There are many shades of gray.


On the pasuk, HaTzur tamim pe'olo ki chol derchav mishpat, Kel emuna v'ein avel the explanation I was taught is that a judge has to base his judgment on the law and can't take other circumstances into account. Only Hashem can be a true Judge, taking in all the ramifications of a judgment before passing judgment.

But what you say is heartening. It's why the US is still considered a malchus shel chesed. There's a story told about La Guardia as judge that he fined someone $3 for stealing food because he was hungry, then he took his hat and passed it around the court because he held everyone responsible for the man's coming to that point.

ETA: and your comment a few posts ago, at 1:22 am, so, so true. We can hold two opposing thoughts, compassion even while accepting that we can't make things better as things stand now.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:45 am
fmt4 wrote:
http://popchassid.com/responsibility-compare-trump-hitler/


I don't think I'd go that far. Or if I would think it I would definitely not say it. But there's a very scary undercurrent out there of those who are fed up that we aren't giving up and coronating Trump. Some local c list talk show host in his editorial minute rambled about all the silly reasons people don't like Trump. For example - not quoting exactly but pretty much - "they make him out to be some wild-eyed serial philanderer. Well, if we are Christians where's our forgiveness?
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 9:07 am
marina wrote:
Yes. I don't think open borders is possible. This just means that there is no simple solution and that we have to work on improving our immigration policy. But that has to come with an awareness of those people's plight, not an insistence that they all come here to make money and aren't really crime victims, etc.


The US is currently taking in 1 million immigrants per year (legal and non-legal). Immigrants are now just under 19% of the US population.

I don't disagree with you that we need a better policy, but the very many concerns (national security interests, increase in crime rates, drain on social services, including health care and education systems, jobs, etc.) are valid.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 2:34 pm
Laiya wrote:
The US is currently taking in 1 million immigrants per year (legal and non-legal). Immigrants are now just under 19% of the US population.

I don't disagree with you that we need a better policy, but the very many concerns (national security interests, increase in crime rates, drain on social services, including health care and education systems, jobs, etc.) are valid.


There's also the data issue: crime rates have decreased every year since the 90s. Aliens have lower violent crime rates than everyone else. They contribute billions to the economy and social security , etc.

Here's a good analysis http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013......com/
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 3:43 pm
marina wrote:
There's also the data issue: crime rates have decreased every year since the 90s. Aliens have lower violent crime rates than everyone else. They contribute billions to the economy and social security , etc.

Here's a good analysis http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013......com/


The limited possible economic benefits brought by illegal immigrants is a separate issue, and still non-responsive to the various concerns.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 4:05 pm
Laiya wrote:
The limited possible economic benefits brought by illegal immigrants is a separate issue, and still non-responsive to the various concerns.


I think it's not a separate issue at all- it's part of a cost- benefit analysis. And the concerns you mentioned are, at least in part, economic, e.g. burden on social
Services and schools and health system. So looking at economic benefits is more than relevant.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 9:33 pm
marina wrote:
I think it's not a separate issue at all- it's part of a cost- benefit analysis. And the concerns you mentioned are, at least in part, economic, e.g. burden on social
Services and schools and health system. So looking at economic benefits is more than relevant.


Ok, here are some facts: (see http://cis.org/2012-profile-of.....ation)

Immigrants do not boost economic growth (as there is no correlation between influx of immigrants and economic growth in a locale).

One out of every 5 native born white Americans lost their job to an immigrant in 2010.

One third of all children living in poverty in the US are children of immigrants.

The article you linked acknowledged the strain on local education and healthcare systems caused by the influx of illegal immigrants.

So they may be adding to the SS fund, but they are also costing jobs to citizens and straining the medical, educational and welfare systems.

Also not sure how you can say they don't contribute to the overall violent crime rate.
See for ex. http://www.dcclothesline.com/2.....gest/

And again, this doesn't even address the national security issues and concerns of terrorist infiltrations.
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wondergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 09 2016, 5:44 pm
marina wrote:
The first few scenarios are the reason we have Section 8 and foodstamps and laws preventing immediate eviction of tenants who cannot pay rent. Because we, as a society, don't want to be in the position of criminalizing poverty. And many people, including me, think we need to develop a better immigration policy that doesn't criminalize trying to escape a horrible place and give your child a better chance.

But yes, stealing is a crime and speeding is a crime and being in the country illegally is a crime. That's why illegal aliens get deported every day. As to why not all illegal aliens are being deported- that's also no different than the discretion that every prosecutor and judge has when faced with a person who stole food because she was starving or couldn't pay the rent. Prosecutors don't prosecute every case given to them, not by a long shot. And even when they do, the criminal ends up pleading to a lower offense much of the time. Judges likewise don't issue the same sentence for the same crime; they may even not issue any sentence at all or just "time served" if that's what they think fits best.

There's a lot of discretion in how crime is dealt with, and every day people are coming up with more creative solutions. In many states, for example, there are specialized drug courts who exclusively deal with drug addicts and help them get the assistance they need instead of going to prison.

You seem to see the world in black and white: the illegal alien is a criminal! Criminals have to be punished! All illegal aliens must be punished and if not, that means we need to release every American from jail because otherwise we are hypocrites!

But the world is not black and white at all. There are many shades of gray.

Section 8 isn't available anymore. You have to be homeless to qualify for certain vouchers, but there are other people ahead of you so you may have to wait a while til you get it and then may not find an apartment/landlord that will accept it. There may be laws to prevent eviction but eviction still happens, every day in fact. It is hard for tenants to get a pro bono lawyer and they end up losing in court as a result. Homelessness in New York City has reached the highest levels since the Great Depression of the 1930s-- http://www.coalitionforthehome.....city/

But the world is not black and white as you say and the poor are not being punished. Fine. Let's look at Food Stamps-- you have to be eligible for it which means that if you work and make just a bit more than the eligibility cutoff point then you will not qualify. You may also not qualify if you are a student and more people are about to lose their eligibility as well-- http://www.thenation.com/artic.....rica/

But we as a society don't want to be in the position of criminalizing the poor. Right. We can't help our own citizens but we have to help our neighbors with their problems while we are at it.

Is that how it works at your house as well? Do you help your neighbor's kids before you help your own kids? And you punish your kid for breaking the rules in your house but you wouldn't dare punish your neighbors kids if they broke the rules in your house?

Because that is the kind of compassionate people we Americans are, always helping everyone else even at the expense of our own citizens. That is why it's okay for illegal aliens to break multiple laws and not be penalized for it--because we only punish our own citizens, not citizens from other countries.

America sure is amazing, I am surprised that more people aren't coming to live here.
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wondergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 09 2016, 6:07 pm
marina wrote:
You realize you are actually blaming the victims here. Hey you illegal aliens! If you wouldn't be trying to leave your country for a better life, your family wouldn't have been tortured, duh and overall crime rates would be lowered, duh.

Your posts come across as very very simplistic and uninformed. It doesn't seem that you have done any in depth research into either the dangers of the countries where the immigrants are coming from or the benefit of illegal aliens to America's financial system. It also sounds like you've never actually met an illegal alien or really read about one.

Here are some links

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06......html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/a......html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yo.....tory/

You tell me that I am blaming the victims but then you show me some articles about people who broke the law and got excellent educations, scholarships to college, highly coveted spots at Harvard, etc after they broke the law (or even multiple laws). You realize that there are many American citizens who don't get to graduate high school, can't get into Harvard let alone get a full ride there, and don't get scholarships to college so they end up not going because they can't afford it? And they did not break any laws to get these privileges either. These american citizens are the real victims because their scholarships are being stolen by illegal aliens.

It's ironic that you call me simplistic and uniformed but maybe I wouldn't be so "ignorant" as you say (what's up with the ad hominem?) if I would have gotten a full scholarship to Harvard. Do you think this illegal aliens would give up their scholarships to college in exchange for becoming a citizen and not being able to go to college?

So they come to America illegally, granted their parents are the one at fault but they still go ahead and get fake social security cards so by then they know they are breaking the law and are doing it willingly. Fine. They get an excellent education and full scholarships to college. Now they also expect America to give them citizenship as well. Hmm... How about we make a compromise. The illegal alien will go back to their country of origin for 10 years and teach ESL, provide medical support, help develop and enforce the laws, etc. This would be similar to what American citizens do, they volunteer in foreign countries to help the people there with whatever they need help with. The illegal aliens would be doing the same thing but in their own country of origin. They will use the tools and skills they got in America to make their country of origin a better and safer place for everyone living there. After 10 years of service, they (the illegal aliens) will earn their American citizenship and be able to return to America as a legal citizen with all the privileges, benefits, and rights that American citizens have. Now that is an immigration reform policy that I can get behind and support. Do you think that would be an appropriate compromise? Why or why not?
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