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FBI raid in Monsey - Amother enabled
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:00 pm
amother wrote:
Aren't you doing the same thing with the girls? 10 women said that they didn't struggle in college (without considering which college they went to or if they got a fake diploma etc) and that obviously means that thousand of Satmar graduates don't struggle in college or wouldn't struggle if they decide to go to college? Why is it okay to say that about the girls but not the boys?


That's why I disagree with the premise on both ends.

The schools need to provide the soft skills, like reading writing and critical thinking, so that with inner motivation and capabalities anyone can forge their own path to higher education.

You can't expect more from a community that views secular education as a negative. They won't change their value system just because a small minority - or even the government or yaffed or whoever - decided they should. To fight this reality in any way other than "each person cleaning their own doorstep" is fighting a losing battle. The extremists will dig in their heels and make it worse for all of us. That is the social reality.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:02 pm
amother wrote:
I guess the entire satmar community is mentally ill and co-dependent. Or is it only the parents who send their kids to Satmar school?


No. It's only the people who don't think for themselves.

If it seems like "everybody" falls into this category you're not really looking.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:02 pm
Maya wrote:
Because the level of education is so vastly different, it can't can be compared.

And yet there are so many men with advanced degrees. Even Moster who started Yaffed has an MSW. How are they successful in college and graduate school if they have no secular education growing up?
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:13 pm
amother wrote:
That's why I disagree with the premise on both ends.

The schools need to provide the soft skills, like reading writing and critical thinking, so that with inner motivation and capabalities anyone can forge their own path to higher education.

You can't expect more from a community that views secular education as a negative. They won't change their value system just because a small minority - or even the government or yaffed or whoever - decided they should. To fight this reality in any way other than "each person cleaning their own doorstep" is fighting a losing battle. The extremists will dig in their heels and make it worse for all of us. That is the social reality.

Take away all government funding until they abide by the laws. How long do you think it will take until these extremists cave and agree to give all children a real education and allow the boys and girls to graduate with an accredited high school diploma?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:21 pm
amother wrote:
And yet there are so many men with advanced degrees. Even Moster who started Yaffed has an MSW. How are they successful in college and graduate school if they have no secular education growing up?

Again, the "so many" you speak of is in reality
a very small fraction of the community, usually the ones with the extraordinary brains or ambition that propels them forward. Most average people find it incredibly hard to do that, and let's face it, most people in this world are average.

And just because someone rose above it or made it out of the community doesn't mean they can't advocate for change for those who weren't as successful or lucky.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:33 pm
Maya wrote:
Again, the "so many" you speak of is in reality
a very small fraction of the community, usually the ones with the extraordinary brains or ambition that propels them forward. Most average people find it incredibly hard to do that, and let's face it, most people in this world are average.

And just because someone rose above it or made it out of the community doesn't mean they can't advocate for change for those who weren't as successful or lucky.

I guess I struggled because I'm just average or wasn't ambitious enough. Or maybe I'm below average because some of the other satmar women didn't struggle. Or maybe those women are above average which is why they didn't struggle. Either way, I shouldn't advocate for Satmar girls because they won't struggle either since they are all above average. Fine. You win. Good Shabbos.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:34 pm
amother wrote:
Take away all government funding until they abide by the laws. How long do you think it will take until these extremists cave and agree to give all children a real education and allow the boys and girls to graduate with an accredited high school diploma?


Millenia.

The czars of Russia tried worse.

That's the mentality, anyway.

More with honey than with vinegar, and slow and steady wins the race.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:35 pm
amother wrote:
I guess I struggled because I'm just average or wasn't ambitious enough. Or maybe I'm below average because some of the other satmar women didn't struggle. Or maybe those women are above average which is why they didn't struggle. Either way, I shouldn't advocate for Satmar girls because they won't struggle either since they are all above average. Fine. You win. Good Shabbos.


Advocate, but be smart. Don't break anyone's fingers because then you'll lose the fight.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 19 2016, 5:35 pm
amother wrote:
It's ironic that so many chasidishe men have advanced degrees even though they have a lower level secular education than the girls. I don't know why anyone is complaining because the men seem to be doing just fine so there is no need to change anything. I mean, that is the argument that some people's make when it comes to the girls (that if some satmar girls do just fine then all satmar girls do just fine as well and there is no need to change anything) so I will use that same logic when it comes to the boys--some boys do just fine then it must be that all boys can do fine as well so there is no need to change anything because their education is obviously adequate.

But do you know which yeshivas they attended?


Belz and Bobov among others.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 19 2016, 6:43 pm
cnc wrote:
Belz and Bobov among others.

Belz and Bobov had relatively robust general studies programs until recently, when they had to join the race to fanaticism. I believe the boys in Bobov were even taking Regents at some point. But not anymore, now they do as the other Chassidish chedarim do.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 19 2016, 9:10 pm
amother wrote:
Millenia.

The czars of Russia tried worse.

That's the mentality, anyway.

More with honey than with vinegar, and slow and steady wins the race.


First, honey has already been tried.

Second, for every year you are trying with honey, there are thousands of illiterate students graduating who will get married and not be able to feed their families. Every year this goes on is another thousand families who are condemned to live a life on public assistance.

Enough. Time to take away the funding and see what happens. I think that there is a good chance that over a few decades, the schools who do not lose the funding, the schools who teach secular studies as they are supposed to, will be able to attract more students because more money may mean more scholarships or more other attractive features. It's worth a shot.

And really, they don't deserve taxpayer funds for anything if they are not teaching secular subjects. Think about how you'd feel finding out that your taxes were going to some madrassah that taught only the Korah and Hadiths and no secular subjects. Ugh.
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