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A thought about disability, mental illness & DLKZ



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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 1:31 am
So anyway I was thinking about these things and this idea kind of jelled in my head and I wanted to write it down. I don't think it's particularly original. If any of these ideas make sense I think I got then from the iggeret haRamban.

Anyway.....

When we label someone with a disability or mental illness one thing we are effectively saying is-

"this person may sometimes do things that we find difficult or wrong or strange, but we should help them and cut them some slack because they really can't help it". Or in other words "this person's nekudat bechira lies outside the normal range.".

So there seems to be a greater awareness in this generation of disability and mental illness and a lot more diagnoses than in the past, and this is often seen as a bad thing.

But I would say the opposite. In a sense the easiest way to judge a person's actions favorably (when finding an alternative plausible side to the story seems very difficult) is to assume that the person has a disability of some sort that does not enable them to do things the way you would expect. Not a disability in the traditional sense, but mite of an inability to do otherwise. In other words, to assume that if someone is doing something that you don't like, it is absolutely not in their power to do it differently. They are sort of like Hashem's puppet, sent to test you.

Anyway... What do you think??
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amother
Violet


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 1:40 am
This is a lovely way of looking at things. It comes from being humble enough to realize that you can't really understand another person's life.

I'm not sure I agree with your last line, that Hashem is sending this person to test you. It puts you at the center of the universe. How do you know that you aren't in the other person's life as a test for her?
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 1:43 am
amother wrote:


I'm not sure I agree with your last line, that Hashem is sending this person to test you. It puts you at the center of the universe. How do you know that you aren't in the other person's life as a test for her?


Oh it is most certainly both.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:03 am
MitzadSheini wrote:
So anyway I was thinking about these things and this idea kind of jelled in my head and I wanted to write it down. I don't think it's particularly original. If any of these ideas make sense I think I got then from the iggeret haRamban.

Anyway.....

When we label someone with a disability or mental illness one thing we are effectively saying is-

"this person may sometimes do things that we find difficult or wrong or strange, but we should help them and cut them some slack because they really can't help it". Or in other words "this person's nekudat bechira lies outside the normal range.".

So there seems to be a greater awareness in this generation of disability and mental illness and a lot more diagnoses than in the past, and this is often seen as a bad thing.

But I would say the opposite. In a sense the easiest way to judge a person's actions favorably (when finding an alternative plausible side to the story seems very difficult) is to assume that the person has a disability of some sort that does not enable them to do things the way you would expect. Not a disability in the traditional sense, but mite of an inability to do otherwise. In other words, to assume that if someone is doing something that you don't like, it is absolutely not in their power to do it differently. They are sort of like Hashem's puppet, sent to test you.

Anyway... What do you think??
Im really not sure I agree with your view on this.
It is not easy to judge someone's actions assuming they have a disability. I also dont know if you can group together mental illness and disability.
My husband had Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, he also has Clinical Depression. I never excuse what he does because of his illnesses. Thats not fair to anyone, to him or to me.
And no, I completely do not agree that it is not in their power to change. If that is the case, and it makes one's life a living h@ll, get out. I say that from experience. My huband's mental illnesses were wreaking havoc on our lives, our marriage and everything around us was turning to much. It was awful. The only reason that I even remotely thought of staying with my husband was two fold. And none of those reasons were love or knowing that he was sent to me to be tested (which I dont agree with) but the two reasons were that he started taking responsibility for his actions by 1.taking medication and 2. going for individual couseling as well as marriage counseling. And BH it made a big huge difference.
But to cut my husband slack? No, he has to man up to how he acts and why. And he knows that I am always here for him and I help him out as much and as often as I can, but I cant cut him slack and let it be. Because then we would most definitely not be married anymore.
As far as being tested by having my husband in my life, if I actually thought that was true, I would have left religion a long time ago because I would have been so angry with Gd.
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:12 am
Plum I sincerely apologize for upsetting you . It's just a thought. Just disregard it. So sorry for your situation.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:19 am
MitzadSheini wrote:
Plum I sincerely apologize for upsetting you . It's just a thought. Just disregard it. So sorry for your situation.
Its ok, you dont have to apologize. I was just showing you the other side of the same coin really.
BH my situation is so much better now. Medication and counseling have made things much better. But I was showing how I see things. Thats all.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:24 am
When you cannot DLKZ a person in other ways, then yes, you should realize they are doing the best they can at that moment with their limitations.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:37 am
I do think the people in my life are sent to test me and improve me. Is it Rebbe Nachman that says that? Everyone that enters my life is there for a reason, and I am meant to learn something from the situation.
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:46 am
See to me this is an irony that I'm just starting to realise -

The more I see the world as created for me and that everything that happens to me is especially for me, the less I try to control other people, the less I feel negatively about their actions. I mean it doesn't always work and I'm still easy too easily irritated, but it helps
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Emotional




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:10 am
The only problem with this theory is that it absolves anyone who does any wrong from accountability and making an effort to change.
Someone owes you $1000? Well, you know, they have ADHD, they're disorganized, it's hard to stay on top of bills... that all may be true, and I have ADHD myself so I can certainly relate... but at some point you just want your $1,000 back.
Do I make any sense?
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:14 am
Emotional wrote:
The only problem with this theory is that it absolves anyone who does any wrong from accountability and making an effort to change.
Someone owes you $1000? Well, you know, they have ADHD, they're disorganized, it's hard to stay on top of bills... that all may be true, and I have ADHD myself so I can certainly relate... but at some point you just want your $1,000 back.
Do I make any sense?
You make 100% sense (Im the amother above with the mentally ill husband) I could not agree with you more.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:19 am
If u wanto call adhd in children a disability. Then yes op you are spot on. There is so little these children can control. And according to hashkafa Hashem sends you all your situations to make you a better person. Personally I don't find that helpful. It doesn't give me any helpful ways of dealing with the situation. I do believe in that and it gives me comfort but not a plan of action. I wonder if I'm clear?

I think what I'm trying to say is that thought didn't go through my mind when I was trying to understand ds, what helped me was a supportive husband and professionals. And a diagnosis.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:23 am
Mental illness is tough. And if being Dan leaf zechus helps then go for it
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:36 am
An explanation is not necessarily an excuse. But it can help to think of it as a different nekudat bechirah, as the OP explains. They may still be responsible, but it can lessen the animosity toward the act, which can make it easier to deal with it calmly.
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 5:21 am
I do get it about the responsibility thing and I am not trying to deny responsibility. I have been trying to think of an appropriate mashal to explain what I mean. This is a little ridiculous but anyway....

Let's say a man goes to a store and buys $100 worth of goods. But because he is blind, he accidently pays with just a $1 bill and leaves the store. Now OBVIOUSLY he still owes the $99 and you absolutely you claim it back from him. He is totally responsible to pay. But if you know that he is blind, you will feel no anger to him that he made the mistake. You will realise that it was not in his power to do anything else, even though he is required to rectify the error.

So to with all "annoying actions" of other people. Does this make any sense?

Let me repeat- absolutely happy & interested to hear alternative views BUT absolutely do not want to upset anyone. So if anything I write here is upsetting please try to ignore it.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 6:44 am
I think it makes more sense to use this idea for little things in life or people that you really have no control over like a neighbor. So, say you have a neighbor that stops talking to you for something very minor and you can't seem to convince her to forgive you then you can deal with it by saying that she must have a mental issue and should really be seeking help and feel sorry for her (this did happen to me recently). But, if you have a spouse or parent that is having a "mental issue" for real then you need to deal with it head on and not just DLKZ it away (like the poster above had mentioned)... Just wanted to add that I also have had the same thoughts as OP and I feel like it is a breath of fresh air to read this discussion before RH". Even regarding the poster that explained the situation with her husband, this teaches us to judge her favorably even though she couldn't just be DLKZ her husband (obviously in this case we would not assume that she was mentally ill but we can still apply DLKZ that she couldn't just be DLKZ her husband, the truth is that I find her strength to be admirable, but if you happen not to see that then you can still DLKZ her). Hope this makes sense and I am also not trying to hurt anyone so feel totally free to ignore all that I wrote!
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kollel wife




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 6:49 am
I appreciate what you're saying very much. I think it's easier to think about it when its more milder situations. For example, I work with someone who can be very nasty. So realizing this person has less patience/different personality that I do, helps me get over the hurt of her speech. Also, it's an opportunity for me to work on my self confidence, prepare how I will respond, etc.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 27 2016, 6:55 am
OP I agree with your general point but with one caveat: that if those actions are affecting (general) you, you need to take action to protect yourself, even while having compassion and understanding the perpetrators bechirah limitations.

You cannot change them, but you can manage your own life to avoid being trampled on.
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