Female presidential candidate?

rfeig613

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 10:41 am

PinkFridge wrote:

But you do have issues with violations of serara.

Because serara is a real halachic concern. Rav Soloveitchik, zt"l, didn't allow women to serve in any leadership positions, not even as a mashgichah, yet he taught women gemara. Even the Lubavitcher Rebbe believed women should be taught torah sheba'al peh.

The problem with discussions about women and Judaism is that very few people view these matters with nuance. There are many specific issues that come into play. There are Sephardic friends of mine who will not make a bracha on lulav, but who learn and go to women's gemara classes. You can't lump all these matters together and paint them with a broad stroke.

gold21

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 10:45 am

rfeig613 wrote:

In Modern Orthodox communities, women learn gemara, and that's fairly noncontroversial by us. For people like me, I don't see the issue.

It's fairly controversial in other communities though.

So, let's call it even. Learning gemara would not be accepted in my community, and a female in leadership position would not be accepted in yours. Now let's move on.

gold21

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 10:48 am

rfeig613 wrote:

Torah she'baal Peh does not equal Gemara.

"Few people view these matters with nuance"- ok, yes, you are the only one who has a solid jewish education, who knows halacha, who has a relationship with a competent Rabbi, and therefore you are the only one who understands the nuances of our religion. We bow to your superior understanding of Judaism and we have all been mistaken in believing it is halachically permissible for a woman to be in a position of leadership, as that clearly- CLEARLY, I might add- violates the sheva mitzvos bnei Noach. It is definitely preferable for a female to learn gemara than for her to work in a leadership role, there is no doubt that every Rabbi in every community would agree with that premise. Its basic halacha, perhaps part of the 10 Commandments. (Could there be a little-known 11th commandment, the violation of a woman being in a leadership role, that we have not been told about and are therefore misinformed about? Oh, the horror. Gasp.).

OK.... Next....

dancingqueen

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 12:01 pm

What is serarah?

There are definitely women in leadership positions In Rw mo/YU communities. I actually have trouble believing that rfeig is from one of those communities because of the way she speaks e.g. "shvarzve", unless she is a lot older than me.

Volunteer

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 3:06 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

At least you admit it. Liberalism is a mental disease that can only be cured by a gun and a flag in each hand. Some Torah learning for the yidden wouldn't hurt, either.

I thought women weren't supposed to carry weapons because they are "kli gever." At least not ones for display.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 3:22 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

In Modern Orthodox communities, women learn gemara, and that's fairly noncontroversial by us. For people like me, I don't see the issue.

And in many MO communities women have leadership roles as well. You cant deny that.
I really feel, by your outlook on life and women that you are not living in a YU world, right wing or not.
YU themselves have women in the leadership positions. What say you of that?

rfeig613

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 3:32 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You'll never see a woman as president of YU.

treestump

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 3:32 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I literally never call troll, but I feel like someone with a strong streak of mischievous humor is doing a parody here. And many of the posts remind me of something I've Seas (whoops, seen) before... Perhaps a parody on another lifestyle will be coming up next.

This is just a theory. For all I know, it may be entirely legit and rw YU has gone even more right wing than chareidi society. Wink

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 3:39 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

You'll never see a woman as president of YU.

But as someone said, many of the different departments are headed by women. Those are leadership roles.

gold21

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 3:51 pm

treestump wrote:

Haha.

Totally.

Im thinking really funny yeshiva guy LOL

Either way, an entertaining poster Tongue Out

Volunteer

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:03 pm

Volunteer wrote:

I thought women weren't supposed to carry weapons because they are "kli gever." At least not ones for display.

By the way, please don't besmirch my second amendment rights by implying that you would shoot "liberals."00000

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:06 pm

Volunteer wrote:

I thought women weren't supposed to carry weapons because they are "kli gever." At least not ones for display.

I know some very religious dati leumi women who wear guns and yes, they are seen to the naked eye.

Volunteer

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:14 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I know some very religious dati leumi women who wear guns and yes, they are seen to the naked eye.

Actually, I agree with you. I was referring to one interpretation of the verse about "kli gever al isha." I think that even that opinion says that carrying weapons is prohibited for women when it's for display, but when it's necessary for self-defense, it's ok according to all. Rav Ovadia wrote a teshuva about this topic. A synopsis here: Question: may women carry guns?

rfeig613

Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:15 pm

Reb Moshe paskened that military garb and rifles were klei gever, but a pistol is not klei gever, since a woman carries the gun for pikuach nefesh and not to look like a man. The sheila was posed by Rav Shabtai Rappaport, a grandson, who's a chashuve rav in Gush.

Volunteer

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 10:46 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

There are many other halachos subsumed under each of the 7 broad mitzvos. Many poskim, including the Rema and the Meiri, hold that the halachos of choshen mishpat are chal for bnei noach, and this falls under Dinim. Furthermore, under Arayos is an issur of znus and immodesty for non jews. A woman in a leadership position is immodest. It's also an issur of serarah, which is chal for bnei noach.

I realize this thread is dead already, but I like to take my time to read more about and consider before I post. Apologies for the late reply. Better late than never.

Regarding the notion that all the halachot in Choshen Mishpat apply to non-Jews... I'm not sure that what you present here is accurate. Clearly not everything in Choshen Mishpat applies to non-Jews. The Torah explicitly allows them to charge and pay interest, for example. Also, monetary penalties in civil cases don't apply to them.

Non-Jews are required, as a whole, to encode and enforce just civil laws so their societies can function properly and maintain peace. But their laws don't have to be exactly the same as the Torah's. The Rambam seems to opine that way, at least. Mishneh Torah: Kings & Wars Ch. 10 Reference the last section in the chapter. I haven't looked up the Rema or the Meiri's comments. Either they didn't mean exactly how you presented it, or the matter is subject to dispute.

All this is in addition to the issue of what exactly the parameters of "issur serara" are for us. While the Torah says that a king has to be "from your brothers" and the rabbis learned that means to exclude women and converts, where is the cut off point where a position of responsibility is okay or not okay? Rabbi H. Shachter wrote an article about female rabbis that I read a while ago (I think you might have referenced it above somewhere). He compared women and converts in this regard, and said that neither should have rabbinical positions because that would be a position of authority. But then again, the sources he was basing himself on were talking about "genuine" semicha, which is no longer in effect. Also, while converts are officially not supposed to be judges/ rabbis with "real" semichah according to the letter of the law on the books, in practice, today converts are allowed in yeshivas and semicha programs, and can become rabbis, and serve as teachers, principals, and clergy. So... there are some other factors at play here. Why that dispensation should not apply to women today has to do with concerns for "tzniut" and "tradition, tradition, tradition." Neither of which are totally set in stone, since the notions of what's socially acceptable and traditional certainly change with time and place.
Ok, so I'm not sure how much that last paragraph was germane to a discussion about having a female president of the USA, just something to think about, since it was mentioned.