Vent: teachers with poor spelling/grammar

Teomima

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 8:56 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

We're in Israel, and DD is constantly complaining about her "English" teacher. I use quotes, because this woman is not an Anglo, and can barely speak a complete sentence, never mind read or write one.

DD is a voracious reader, and an excellent story writer. She needs help with punctuation, sight words, and paragraph structure, and she's not getting it. She's in 7th grade, and they're giving her 3rd grade busywork. She's already been moved up to the 8th grade class, but they have the same teacher, and she's still not being challenged.

Meanwhile, she's only getting two hours a week of Hebrew! How is this kid supposed to learn anything? (To be fair, the math teacher speaks English well, and she's excelling in math for the first time in her life, and algebra is a breeze for her.)

May I suggest you get her private tutors? I was in grade school when we made aliyah and there were hardly any Anglos in Israel (this was long before Nefesh B'nefesh). It was simply taken for granted that anyone who really cared about their child learning English would need outside help, even if the school could get an Anglo teacher they didn't have the resources or teaching materials necessary (no internet back then, either).

PinkFridge

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:00 am

Deleting. Saw50st made my points exactly.
I prefer a professional handout. I would hope that a teacher who knows s/he doesn't have the language skills will have papers proofread.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total

33055

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:02 am

sky wrote:

I would hope the schools that charge 10K+ are hiring differently then schools paying 5K. (Disclaimer: My kids go to schools on the lower end)

My friend asked me to look at the website for a northern NJ. Boys High School. The site was riddled with grammatical errors. The school's tuition is over $20,000. Just saying...

Bad grammar is pervasive in in this community. I don't care how smart you are, you look like an idiot if you can't present your ideas higher than a third grade level.

The current thinking in public education is that children must write grammatically correct answers even in mathematics. Accepting anything less in our schools puts our children at a disadvantage as adults.

cinnamon

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:13 am

I have a very hard time with grammar and spelling. I'm pretty sure it's a neurological issue, my father and sister have the same problems. I trained myself as much as I could, I use spellcheck and google to proof read.
It can get very frustrating to have to work so hard on every email and post and even after proof reading I still have more mistakes than is normal.

I have a college degree and work in a professional setting I’m hardly uneducated.

(Before submitting this post I ran it through spell check - had eight spelling mistakes and two grammatical errors in these few lines.)

FranticFrummie

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:25 am

cinnamon wrote:

Would you consider a career as an English teacher? Probably not, would be my guess.

I don't look down on people who have problems with language. My dad is so dyslexic, that I remember as a child, I proofread his business letters before he sent them to his secretary to proofread. He was embarrassed to send in his first draft, so even my mistakes weren't as bad as his. It didn't make me think any less of him.

I am ATROCIOUS at math. Seriously, it's sad how bad I am at it. I have a friend who got her Master's degree in math, and is also really good at spelling. The thing is, I make really intricate, fancy jewelry, and if the clasp comes off of one of her necklaces, she absolutely freaks out! I fix the necklace in two seconds flat, and she think's I'm a genius. LOL

Everyone has their talents. The important thing is to do what you do well, and not get down on yourself for what you struggle with.

LittleDucky

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:40 am

saw50st8 wrote:

What grade and subject?

My son's hebrew teacher is Israeli and not a fluent english speaker. She does a great job but there are definitely gaps in her knowledge. She can communicate effectively and that's all that matters.

I don't care if my kid's kindergarten teacher is a great speller either. There are other more pressing factors.

I think in kindergarten it is essential to spell correctly! Kids are learning the foundations for reading the English language. We don't want it to be shaky. I looked at a school once that had a giant poster of the ABCs. And it spelled calendar with an "e". Ugh! Don't use that word if you can't spell it! Use "cat" or "cookie".
Write "it is" if you can't figure out the different "it's".

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:55 am

LittleDucky wrote:

I agree with this, but I'm definitely willing to cut some slack even at the K level. Calendar should have been looked over by someone else but even the best proofreaders miss something. Sometimes, you look at a word that's spelled correctly and it looks wrong too, even when you know that it's right! As long as it's not egregious, I'm OK with it personally (but I'm a science person so that probably skews my perspective).

I have a relative who is a fantastic early childhood educator. She's awesome at engaging the kids and teaching them and making them excited to learn. She cannot spell for the life of her. She's teaching Nursery and it works for her.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 11:58 am

It's possible for a teacher with subpar English spelling and grammar to do an excellent job teaching certain STEM subjects in English to older students. At least that was my experience at a top engineering program and with at least one math teacher in high school.

But the teachers and professors I had were all non-native English speakers with obvious accents. The students were old enough to grasp the significance of this and understand that the teacher or professor was speaking English incorrectly. And by high school, most kids' language skills are pretty far along. Thus, there was little danger of bad modeling or learning by imitation. The teachers' effectiveness was reduced, but not tremendously.

But this is totally different from the situation the OP is talking about and I don't think these exceptional scenarios are the point of this thread. The norm should be for teachers to have a solid grasp of the English language, including correct grammar and spelling in written communication. Occasional mistakes will happen. But it should not be a chronic problem.

33055

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 12:28 pm

amother wrote:

I had foreign teachers in STEM subjects at university and graduate school level who have spoke with an accent, but they could write their findings well enough to get published. My university also had a top engineering program, and some of these professors were quite difficult to understand. It was even more important they could write.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 12:55 pm

Squishy wrote:

I'm not talking about professors who merely had problems with English pronunciation. I do not believe that certain of my professors would have been able to independently produce a lengthy piece of writing with few to no grammatical errors. The process of writing for publication varies a lot by discipline and individual professor. But in my experience, it is not the norm for a professor to singlehandedly write and edit a paper or article entirely by himself before submitting for publication.

imasinger

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:02 pm

When a parent encounters an otherwise good teacher who is making egregious spelling or grammatical errors, I think it's nice for said parent to offer to help them.

Hopefully, a good teacher will be very happy to get this kind of help.

Change doesn't happen all at once, but every step helps.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:09 pm

While the two are often correlated, there is a big difference between someone who lacks the big picture communication skills like organizing ideas effectively and logically, and someone who makes errors of grammar and spelling. People who have mastered both in their native language will often be able to communicate effectively in a foreign language even while they continue to make errors of spelling and grammar in that language. Again, totally different from the OP's scenario.

33055

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:11 pm

amother wrote:

I agree the professors have help. As a graduate student, I assisted one nationally recognized engineering professor with his published paper. We completed heavily for the privilege. However, in order to get to the point where you are a recognized expert, you must be able to write beyond a third grade level.

If I continued in academia, I would in turn have my own graduate assistants.

Elementary teachers need to be able to write better than their students regardless of their discipline. I realized this was a problem in the when my son's second grade teacher could not write a simple descriptive sentence at that level. It is heartbreaking we accept and excuse incompetence.

The incompetence is so pervasive that the administration is often similarly handicapped.

33055

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 2:54 pm

amother wrote:

Most men/boys in my community can organize ideas effectively and logically. This comes from learning Gemura IMO. They still can not present their ideas on a third grade level when forced to write.

This worked fine in a closed community with others similarly handicapped. This doesn't work in the rest of the world.

gold21

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 3:00 pm

seeker wrote:

That's really harsh. There are some very gifted teachers with weaknesses in specific areas and I think students stand to learn a lot from people who overcome personal obstacles like that.
I would propose instead "If the English language is not your strong suit, learn to use tools and resources to polish your presentation, and have someone proofread anything that might be used to judge you."

Agree

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 3:05 pm

Squishy wrote:

Interesting. I am center to LWMO and have never been in that kind of closed community. But I have heard many shiurim, and let's just say I am not convinced that Gemara study teaches a person to organize and present ideas effectively and logically.

Incidentally, I was not defending inadequate writing skills, just pointing out and additional distinction between the ESL case and the native speaker who never properly learned how to write in any language. I think writing (both the big picture skills and spelling/grammar) is actually the hardest skill to make up later, because you cannot really "cram" writing skills in the way that many bright people can cram a few years of math into a few months of intense study.

33055

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 3:59 pm

amother wrote:

I agree it is the hardest skill to make up later.

I work with many brilliant Chassidish businessmen who can grasp complicated sophisticated subjects more quickly than better educated secular people. They may ask the meaning of basic words, but they fully understand difficult concepts.

Perhaps writing is a necessary skill for presenting and delivering shurim.

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

This. Learning to arrange your thoughts is a skill. Few people are naturally organized. When I listen to a shiur, I can tell if the speaker went to college.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 4:23 pm

gold21 wrote:

Agree

If you think it's unfair to expect your kids' teachers to be educated, then go ahead and send them to schools where the teachers are the products of their own poor education. I'll send my kids somewhere they will actually learn to read and write and get somewhere in life.