Why is fake trief food considered Kosher?

saw50st8

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:24 am

amother wrote:

Really? I have to confess I keep cholov yisroel so I've never bought the mainstream brand breads/ bagels/ english muffins that that are certified kosher dairy. I don't know what sort of siman might or might not be on the bread itself. But I seem to remember my husband telling me he learned that the bag with the hechsher on it could stand as the siman.

English muffins look very different from regular bread, therefore no one would be confused. It's mainly for regular loaves/sliced bread. That's why it's not easy to find kosher bread outside of large cities but english muffins are everywhere.

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:44 am

Excellent question, and excellent point!

I will not buy imitation non-kosher food that is (called) kosher: from a chinuch pov, and I feel nauseated just at the thought of eating it. UGH!

Same way, I feel it is fake chinuch to drink a coffee with pareve milk before 6 hours (or however many hours you keep) after eating fleishigs, or right after a fleishig meal.
It gives over a faking impression.

How did we all manage before pareve milk substitutes came into being?

If our kids see us-parents using self discipline, they will do the same, and in other areas of life too when/where needed, not only drinking coffee.

Just mho.

33055

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:55 am

Raisin wrote:

yes, I think english muffins and so on are different enough.

I don't get when I see challah and bagel recipes that contain butter and milk! (from Jewish but not frum websites or cookbooks) Challa and bagels are traditionally pareve. Plus people might actually decide to make a pastrami sandwich with a bagel.

I'm used to croissants being dairy. Also scones. So I would check if they are pareve or dairy.

They taste better when they are dairy. You can't make certain breads like brioche pareve without expensive substitutions, so I make it dairy for the mornings and pareve when I want to show off. Pareve without certain butter and milk substitutions tastes flat to me.

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:06 am

GetReal wrote:

The issue with dairy and fish is a different one. We don't eat meat and fish because chazal say it's a health hazard. In one place it says not to eat dairy with fish. Since it's not repeated anywhere else it's assumed to be a typo and refer to meat and fish. But some still don't eat dairy and fish, or just don't have milk and fish.

If not eating milk products in the same meal with fish is A TYPO, I think that typo would be rectified and it would be known that it is allowed. How can it be called a typo if Chazal say it?

You could say there are differences of opinions on this subject. Since there are certain eidot that do eat milky foods and fish in the same meal.

But, a typo??? shock

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:15 am

Stars wrote:

Wait why do you think you can control what your grandson eats?

Why can't she tell her grandson???
I don't mean hound him and be overbearing, but tell him? Don't see why not?
Only problem, if the grandson's parents do eat kosher imitation non-kosher food, and don't see any reason to abstain, then it gets problematic and confusing for the grandson.`

I, personally, never interfere in my grandchildren's actions, if their parents allow it.

The only time I will open my mouth - gently but firmly, is if they're doing something in my home which my husband and/or I don't allow in our home.

imasoftov

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

1) Chazal don't say it. The typo appears in the Beit Yosef. The term Chazal is limited to rabbis up to the sealing of the Gemara. The Gemara only forbids fish with meat (actually, roasting them together, not all mixtures), and does not mention fish and dairy.

2) Those communities that do allow fish and dairy rely on opinions of poskim (the Shach and the Taz) that this is in fact a typo.

http://www.crcweb.org/Kosher%2.....3.pdf

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 9:00 am

amother wrote:

It's not chazal. It's in the Beit Yosef, and never seen anywhere before that. Plus, only some eidot hold by it, even among those that typically rule according to the Best Yosef. Hence the widely believed speculation that it was actually a typo. What it comes down to is, did the Best Yosef mean to write down the chalav. We will never know for sure, so those who hold that he did can't just stop holding that way because everyone else thinks it may be a typo. If there were incontrovertible proof that he did not mean to write down chalav, then I suppose the practice would change.

And BTW, the gemara isn't set in stone either. There are different girsaot because over time and different places, things sometimes got transcribed differently and it's NOT always clear what the original wording is.

dee's mommy

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 9:51 am

All I can say is: don't add to the Torah. If you feel uncomfortable, fine, but don't impose that on others.

I don't really view pareve milk as a substitute. Soy milk is soybeans crushed in water and then cooked. (Also, tofu is soymilk curdled.) Any nut milk is the nut crushed with water. (Same with oat and rice milk.) While I drink those, trust me, that is not a substitute. It is another beverage. If it is not milk from an animal, then it is perfectly fine to have that with a meat meal.

Last edited by dee's mommy on Sun, Jul 01 2018, 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total

oliveoil

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 10:04 am

amother wrote:

Excellent question, and excellent point!

I will not buy imitation non-kosher food that is (called) kosher: from a chinuch pov, and I feel nauseated just at the thought of eating it. UGH!

Why nauseated? We are supposed to look at non-kosher food and think "delicious! I wish I could eat that. Hashem made it and it looks so good. I am only not eating it because He doesn't allow us to." To make the leap to "disgusting" is in your head only.

amother wrote:

Same way, I feel it is fake chinuch to drink a coffee with pareve milk before 6 hours (or however many hours you keep) after eating fleishigs, or right after a fleishig meal.
It gives over a faking impression.

How did we all manage before pareve milk substitutes came into being?

parve subsitutes are more available in a wider variety today, but they've been around for a long, long time. What exactly is the fake chinuch here? I would argue fake chinuch is adding in new restrictions, such as "though shall not have almond milk for 6 hours after meat/chicken."

amother wrote:

If our kids see us-parents using self discipline, they will do the same, and in other areas of life too when/where needed, not only drinking coffee.

Just mho.

Surely there is enough self-discipline in other areas of life. We really don't need to add more.

Last edited by oliveoil on Tue, Dec 12 2017, 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total

Miri7

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 12:10 pm

penguin wrote:

Quote:

DH found a good soy cheese that melts nicely on a burger

Oy please tell me which one, I am desperate for a decent pareve cheese (due to intolerance - I'm not even putting it on a burger)!

As for English Muffins, I believe that they're different enough from regular bread. Or, if you bake dairy croissants for Shavuos you're good because regular bread is not that shape.

The brand is daiya

It comes shredded in a plastic bag with a zip closure at the top. It’s yellow and white. It’s OU parevev vegan, and free of lactose, Caesin and gluten.

Sorry it took so long to respond.

shanie5

Sun, Dec 17 2017, 1:07 am

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

Op, do you not eat chicken Capons either? Kosher chicken Capons are deboned chicken bones with the skin intact. A chicken capon literally means a castrated chicken which is not kosher. There are other cuts of kosher meat named after treife meat , would you not eat those either?

Not true. A capon can be kosher. I don't think they can be ordered by the shechting house, but if they are already castrated and available, they can definitely be shechted and kashered. I've had them many times and they are really delicious!

mirah2

Sun, Dec 17 2017, 9:07 am

amother wrote:

Yes, I'm BT. I hadn't thought that was relevant, but you are absolutely correct about this affecting my attitude. When I was growing up we ate "kosher style," with American supermarket meat. It looked a lot more religious than the frum food I'm seeing now.

OP, I haven't read past page 1 yet but if it's any comfort this really isn't just a 'BT issue'. I'm a convert, my husband is FFB, and we both have exactly the same instinctive reaction as you to the idea of fake 'cheeseburgers', 'bacon', or 'crab'. My husband won't even have soya sausage or 'chicken' pieces on a pizza - this sort of thing creeps us both out.

Otoh, we have no problem with sushi that's obviously made from kosher fish (salmon/tuna - fake crab sushi is a different story) or with pareve ice cream. I will also use coconut cream/milk if I want to make a meat or pareve dish with a 'creamy' feel (I have a South Asian background so this doesn't feel strange to me).

We both know perfectly well that the 'fake treif' foods are kosher and are not accusing those who eat them of eating actual treif. It's really more a question of sensitivity and caring about the 'spirit of the law'/appearance of what we're doing I.e. does it look like we're just hankering after blatantly treif food if we were to eat a 'kosher cheeseburger'? Which I guess is why stuff like obviously kosher sushi or using parev milk substitutes doesn't bother us in the same way...

(If it's relevant, neither of us like the idea of sheitels either and I usually wear scarves unless I have to go with the sheitel for professional reasons.)

mirah2

Sun, Dec 17 2017, 9:16 am

amother wrote:

Mass produced bread made with milk can’t get a hechsher where I live. Kosher goes beyond ingredients.

Agreed. For the record, while I haven't exactly gone looking it's either very hard or impossible to find 'fake crab' or 'fake shrimp' in the kosher shops here in London. The first time we even saw such a product for sale was in N. America...

FranticFrummie

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 2:35 pm

I just found this fun little factoid in my email: https://www.atlasobscura.com/f.....bdf13

Practicing Judaism in secret was a dangerous game. Informants were everywhere and reported an overheard Hebrew prayer or, equally incriminating, a lack of hanging sausages. So residents of Mirandela devised a clever way to allow Jews to maintain a kosher diet while also appearing to eat pork. Enter alheira, a poultry-and-bread-based sausage that looked just like the porcine variety. Jews were able to display and eat alheira, which sometimes featured game like veal or venison, without compromising their beliefs. The sneaky sausage likely saved hundreds of lives.