How do you define "frum"?

shyshira

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 12:50 pm

Perhaps the bigger question is... What is the relevance to the person who is increasing in observance/mitzvot of the word "frum"? (going back to the OPs reason for asking the question)

Are we asking when can he announce "I'm frum now" to anyone who is interested? Or when he can feel that he'll be accepted as 'part of the team'?

Are we asking when can we consider him "frum" so that we may feel comfortable eating in his house? Shidduchim?

What is the significance of the term in a social setting?

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 12:50 pm

amother wrote:

That's OK. You're probably my neighbor, given the Irish bar reference, and I can't wrap my head around calling people who talk about their fellow Jews that way as "frum."

LOL, even though I'm posting anonymously I changed many details so as to NOT be obvious to my neighbor (if she's on here) that I'm posting about them. I've no idea if my neighbors have actually set foot in an Irish pub. We're not likely neighbors.

But in any case, what do you mean by talking about my fellow Jews "that way". If they are comfortable dressing that way and doing those things - how can it in any way embarrass them that I point it out?

Again, I am not saying they aren't Orthodox. I am simply saying that in my mind "frum" people fit into another category - even if only on the outside.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 2:11 pm

amother wrote:

Strictly speaking the words may have the exact same definitions. It's about the connotation.

"Frum" evokes an image in my head. And it isn't my neighbors (I'll pick on them, just for an example) who motzei shabbos are running out to a local Irish pub (where full non-kosher menu is served) to drink beer and listen to music, dressed in jeans and baseball cap (the man) and cut-off shorts and a tank top (the woman). They are lovely people and may be very strict on certain things (more than I am for all I know) but I can't wrap my head around calling these people "frum" even though I agree they are orthodox.

Its just so bizarre to me, your explanation. I grew up in a MO community. There were people of all different levels of yiddishkeit and all different kinds of frum/orthodox. We always called anyone, from the woman who wore pants to the man who never learned gemara, but kept shabbat and kashrut, frum. So your explanation is just so foreign to me.

salt

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 1:40 am

I find that Yiddish is more than just a language, where you can look words up in a dictionary. It is a language with a 'life'. Words mean different things when said in different contexts, and by different people. There are many nuances.
So I think 'frum' can mean different things depending on the context.

eg. "Before I was frum, I used to eat there.."
Here it just means 'observant. Before I started keeping mitzvot.

eg. "my kids won't fit into that school, it's a bit frum for us"
Here it doesn't mean "the kids in this school keep Shabbat, kashrut and t.h"
it's more of a feel - maybe more chumrot, stricter dress, more 'dossi' as they say in Israeli slang.

anecdote: When I was a kid, I remember asking my dad about a certain celebrity who I had just found out was Jewish. I asked my dad if she's frum. He said "well she certainly gives a lot of charity, and helps a lot of people" - that put me in my place. I was about 10 at the time, it's stuck in my mind, 30 yrs later!

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:19 am

One who is saying that frum means someone who keeps Shabbat, kosher and Taharas hamispacha, even if they go to mixed beaches, don't daven, don't wear tefilin, etc, would also say that someone who throws stones on Israeli soldiers, doesn't pay taxes, and speaks loshon hora are frum.
I guess it goes both ways.
Just means affiliate with orthodox Judaism.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:35 am

double post (with typo)

Last edited by imasoftov on Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:35 am

amother wrote:

I can't wrap my head around calling people who talk about their fellow Jews that way as "frum."

I did, long ago, and that's why I don't apply the label to myself.

InnerMe

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 12:37 pm

Salt, you are very much on target.

OP is trying to figure out at what point people in transition are considered "frum."
That's why my main point is: who cares which label random people put you under? And at what point. Especially as practically every person has a different opinion.

Lavender- maybe you can chime in and say what's helpful to you.

SpottedBanana

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 12:40 pm

How about "someone who believes halacha is binding and attempts to follow it as best as they can"?

lavenderchimes

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 1:08 pm

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond:) I am three and a half years into being observant, and find this occasionally relevant in the course of conversation. Up until quite recently, I have always said, "Before I became observant ..." I realized Sunday night that I had inexplicably switched -- my mind automatically prompted, "Before I became frum..." Since I'm not from these parts, and Orthodox Judaism is not my culture of origin, I was immediately interested in the implication of the word "frum." I like to understand the words I'm throwing around;) I suppose I was hoping that hearing a variety of ideas on the subject would help me figure out why my brain switched my self-identification without asking my conscious self:)

I don't think this is really "important," which is why I put it under "Interesting Discussions" -- I view it as a matter of interest linguistically and culturally. On the other hand, it is important in that we should all strive to understand one another and what is behind our usage of and application of certain words. I am generally opposed to labels, but I also recognize that we as individuals and as a society use them. A dictionary definition is only a piece of the puzzle; the application of the word "frum" varies widely depending on individual experience and beliefs as well as cultural context. My DH expressed numerous different opinions simultaneously -- and I agreed and disagreed with all of them! So, I came here to learn more about a wider variety of opinions, and thanks to you all, I am getting exactly what I was looking for! Keep them coming! Smile

leah233

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 2:53 pm

I consider anyone who believes the 13 Ikkerim and that they are bound by Halacha to be frum.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 3:49 pm

simba wrote:

Someone who keeps: Shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha. More the merrier, but that's is basic frum to me.

Yup, I was advised before marriage, as long as your husband keeps Shabbos, kashrus, and Taharas hamishpocha, then he is frum.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 3:59 pm

leah233 wrote:

I consider anyone who believes the 13 Ikkerim and that they are bound by Halacha to be frum.

If we're going to use the 13 ikkarim as the criteria, I would insist on the actual 13 ikkarim in Rambam (found in his Mishna commentary in Perek Chelek) and not the list found in the siddur (the one where each line starts "ani maamin") which is of unknown authorship.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:02 pm

amother wrote:

Yup, I was advised before marriage, as long as your husband keeps Shabbos, kashrus, and Taharas hamishpocha, then he is frum.

(is this in the context of a marriage post conversion?)

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:03 pm

amother wrote:

Right or wrong, in my mind frum people are the ones you can identify as Jews by how they look and the sorts of environments they're comfortable in.
We live in a pretty modern community. Many men who don't wear tzitzis and no yarmulke in work environment. Women who don't cover hair, wear jeans or even short shorts, sleeveless. Go to bars, beaches, things like that. They're all shomer shabbos, keep kosher, etc. but in my mind that's not "frum".
Go ahead, throw the tomatoes now.

Interesting. In my mind, a frum jew would not disparage other Jews who are SS, Eat kosher and keep TH. They are frum to me and you are not.

InnerMe

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:19 pm

lavenderchimes wrote:

Quote:

I suppose I was hoping that hearing a variety of ideas on the subject would help me figure out why my brain switched my self-identification without asking my conscious self:)

Firstly, I just had to quote this line, because I love the way you put it.

Secondly, I'm thinking that it probably has more to do with "frum speak" then with actual definitions that your brain switched up the word. Meaning, as you become more "frum" you learn the lexicon, the Yiddishisms, the cultural words, and slowly you start warming up to them and using them.

I think of it like using words like "Genesis" for Bereishis. Many a time, a baal teshuvah will refer to Bereishis that way... but once they become more integrated they begin to catch on to the social nuisances in the cultural language, and may switch it up to using the Hebrew word "Bereishis". Using language that people around us use, helps us feel more connected and integrated. It's signifies a feeling of belonging or wanting to belong to that group. Little cultural actions and words show that I identify with this sect.

So that's my little theory.
L&C, does that make sense?

L K

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 4:26 pm

Off the top of my head, id say frum brings an image of a person who visibly makes an
impression of someone adhering to Halacha, be it shabbos, kashrus, tsnius, tzitzit, shaatnez or anything else. You see tzitzit and assume person is shomer shabbos. You see a sheitel, whether short or long, and assume kashrus and taharas hamishpacha and some awareness of ribbis, hilcchos loshkn hora, lulav and esrog, negel vasser, brochos etc.

At the same time one could keep some of the mitzvos but not all. Hence, someone could keep kosher yet not be frum. Because they specifically keep that mitzva but not others. Same re shabbos. I'd venture to say someone could be keeping shabbos yet not be frum, meaning not even knowing about a multitude of other mitzvos out there.

So for that we have a term "shomer shabbos" which implies just that- shabbos observance but not necessarily general "frumkeit."

Oh, and there's "shomer torah u-mitzvos"- I guess that's what's frum.

Edited for typo