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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Quantum mechanics and other complicated stuff



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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 8:29 am
My 15 year old son, a bochur full time in Yeshiva, no formal secular education, homeschooled for the basics, has recently begun learning high level physics like quantum mechanics, theory of relativity, cold fusion and things like that.
I have no idea what these are. I didn’t learn this in highschool. I think its college level, is it?
He’s learning on khan academy and apparently he understands what he’s learning because he’s fascinated by it and thirsty for more.

My question is this. He didn’t learn physics in order. I have no idea if he even knows the basics. If he understands this high stuff does that mean he can keep going? Or should I encourage him to go back to the basic levels and finish those first?
What else should he be learning along with this?

My other question is what kind of carreer does an interest in these things lead to?
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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 1:20 pm
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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 1:29 pm
I used to study it as teen as a hobby. I went into a totally unrelated field.

Is he asking for guidance/talking about pursuing this as a career? If not, why not just let him enjoy? It's a fascinating subject.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 1:52 pm
So I asked my dh who I had a feeling would know what you were referring to and he did Wink
Here's his response:

"I would find out if he really enjoys physics or just thinks those topics are interesting. The areas of study that you mentioned are all theoretical with the theory of relativity being the most well studied. If he does truly like the idea of doing work in the area, than he will need the basics. Just as an example, if you don't know simple wave equations, like how to add and subtract sin waves, or basic chemistry, like the different theories on the shape of an atom, your study into quantum will be impossible. It would be like trying to learn gamarah without knowing what a rabbi is or that God created the world. I would first gauge his interest and then try to introduce him to the basics. If he is truly interested in learning these topics more in depth, he will also be interested in the basics.

On a side note, it is interesting that you would be asking this today, as Stephen Hawking died today.

In terms of a job, if he is interested in this, he would need to narrow his interests before you can figure out what type of job he wants. Does he want research or a practical application? If he wants to go a more practical route, I would suggest learning the basics very well and then they can be translated into many many things, from car mechanic to rocket scientist to biologist, to chemist,

With the topics you mentioned, there is only research possibilities at this point in time, which is not a bad field of study. This comes from the fact that all of them are theories at this point in time."

* Steven Hawking is an expert in this field.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 1:59 pm
My husband has a PhD in quantum chemistry. He was self-taught through undergrad (he started with a BTL from a Beis Medrash program, then transferred to Brooklyn college for a double major in math and chemistry), then got into a great graduate program.

Quantum physics has some fascinating applications/adjacent studies. Some stay in academia. Quantum computing is a growing field if your DS is also interested in computer science. My DH wrote part of his thesis on quantum botany! Apparently the energy transfers in photosynthesis are quantized, and eventually we might be able to use these principles for more efficient solar panels. So cool!

There are also many quantum physicists who can transfer their skills to fields like finance and economics. Investment firms totally hire physicists - DH did a tour of Morningstar while still a grad student because they were already trying to court the math nerds.

PM me if you want more info!
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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 2:13 pm
This is really helpful. He is interested in all areas of physics and engineering and science in general.
Realistically I’d like to steer him into a career path which is practical in terms of providing a parnasa for his family iyh one day.
I don’t expect him to be the next stephen hawkings though I do wonder how strong his natural talent is.

I assume he needs strong math as well? His math skills aren’t as strong as they could be.

Keep in mind he has extremely limited hours to learn since he’s in Yeshiva morning and night.
I’m trying to direct his learning hours to the most practical that he can actually use for his future.
Knowing exact areas to focus on studying will be a huge help.
Thank you to each one who took the time to respond.
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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 3:02 pm
My dh responded
addition, subtraction can be done on a calculator but algebra and somewhat geometry you need to know very well. Then he needs calculus which is more college level which he will really need to master because that's basically the fundamental of everything.

In terms of parnassah as mentioned above he will do well with this type of background in a variety of fields.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 3:07 pm
I think you should allow him to pursue his interests at this point without pushing him to take classes he will specifically need for related careers. Most 15 year olds will phase through different interests before settling on a career, and when he's at that stage he can take whatever courses he will need.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 3:19 pm
amother wrote:
My dh responded
addition, subtraction can be done on a calculator but algebra and somewhat geometry you need to know very well. Then he needs calculus which is more college level which he will really need to master because that's basically the fundamental of everything.

In terms of parnassah as mentioned above he will do well with this type of background in a variety of fields.


This. A very solid background in math is completely necessary if DS wants to pursue this as a career.

My husband’s day to day work is math - writing equations by hand on a giant whiteboard in his office to sketch out a general plan, and writing computer programs for crunching the numbers.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 3:38 pm
You can learn about physics without math, but you can’t learn physics without calculus.
- my husband
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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 7:06 pm
amother wrote:
I think you should allow him to pursue his interests at this point without pushing him to take classes he will specifically need for related careers. Most 15 year olds will phase through different interests before settling on a career, and when he's at that stage he can take whatever courses he will need.

I’m not pushing him at all. He’s begging me to let him learn!
I have told him that he should really spend some time with the basics and so he has started learning basic physics and basic geometry tonight.
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kjb




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 7:27 pm
OP - You are blessed with your son. To study a full yeshiva programme and still have the curiosity, mental energy not to mention the brains to seriously engage with higher physics in your own time takes a special person. Its head-wreckingly hard stuff. But to turn this interest into a career takes college and serious post graduate study which in turn requires a good secular education in ALL the basics, however he gets it.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 7:31 pm
Did he ever learn algebra? Would you ever consider sending him to a school that has some secular studies?
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amother
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Post Wed, Mar 14 2018, 7:41 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Did he ever learn algebra? Would you ever consider sending him to a school that has some secular studies?

He will not get any formal secular education until he’s at least 20 or so.
Informal education he gets at home as much as he wants and can do.
I want to keep him “in the system” until there is no more system left to go through and then jump into career education as needed.
My goal is to keep him up to date on whatever he would normally get from a secular education at this age so he won’t be behind in any way once he’s ready to jump in.
My method seems to be working just fine thus far. BH Very Happy
BTW he loves learning in Yeshiva too. It’s not like he’s wasting his time there.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 15 2018, 3:15 am
I looked at a non-calculus physics textbook (you can learn physics without it, but to understand where the equations come from you need calculus, and university intro to physics courses are often presented in both non-calculus and calculus versions, the non-calculus versions are not for the science or engineering majors however), I'd say you would need a good bit of it, but not all, to understand quantum physics. Like you could skip the parts about gears and friction for example. But to study quantum physics on a college level you would of course need to learn calculus and first take an introductory physics course (with calculus) and for either you'd need algebra.

But one can also study physics, even quantum and relativistic on a "isn't that interesting?" level rather than "here are the equations and how they are applied". So one could understand, for example, that both special and general relativity affect the GPS system without knowing how to calculate how to correct for both effects. I sometimes watch the first sort of educational videos for entertainment.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Thu, Mar 15 2018, 3:36 am
On a half humorous note: please encourage your ds. While Stephen Hawking was undoubtedly brilliant, he was also unfortunately a declared atheist. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a frum, yeshiva-educated Jewish physicist to be the next big genius in that field? King
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