How to Approach the "Perfect" Secular Jew?

Emuna

Wed, May 16 2007, 9:09 pm

I'm not so sure. A mentor and a friend are two different things, and I'm talking here about mentoring other Jews. In order to be a "true" friend there needs to be give and take. I can't eat in their homes, I don't really want the secular influences of their kids on my kids, a lot of their wisdom comes from non-Torah sources (Oprah, etc.). Do you have experience with this? Of course it's all for ahavas yisroel or else I'd be living in a secluded, frum community, which I am not. But there are limits to this "friendship" you are talking about. Are you so stunned by me? Why? Just relax and try and give some wisdom (of which I'm sure you have some) without saying annoying things like "I am STUNNED by you"

LubavitchLeah

Wed, May 16 2007, 9:31 pm

Emuna you make very real points.

""In order to be a "true" friend there needs to be give and take. I can't eat in their homes, I don't really want the secular influences of their kids on my kids, a lot of their wisdom comes from non-Torah sources"

In theory what GR says sounds nice but in practice your point above is realistic. It does not mean that the "friendship" is purely give, every yid in this world can elevate us and we can learn and grow from them all in some way or another.

cdawnr

Wed, May 16 2007, 11:32 pm

Emuna, I hear your part about the give-and-take, but I think that that then becomes your challenge--to find a way for them to give to you asyou continue to give to them. And a friendship isn't always that simple. If you listen to them and talk to them on a real basis, then you connect.

I think all of us mean that you need to connect with them as people first. I am living in Oregon right now, and we have had the zechus to have a lot of non-frum people at our shabbas tables (one of the things I will miss as we are moving back to Jersey.) Some have expressed their frustration at not being able to return the invite but I always try and make it very very clear to them how much they ARE giving ot me by coming to our table. I think these people see us as friends even though we have never been to any of their houses (they don't live right in the neighborhood).

At the same time, they know that Yiddishkeit is what we are all about. Some of them are definitely potentials to be mkareved (sorry for that horrible grammar!), but some we see are just friends, they are no t searching really and are very veyr content where they are. But you know what --who cares. My attitude is that who knows what may be in five years from now, long after I have left town, when they are suddenly inspired by somehting and remember that lovely frum family that always had them over...

In other words, you never know what it is that will effect someone. Sometimes it's as simple as the memory of delicious challah served at a loving table and other times it is a deeply mystical piece of Torah...

Kepp up the good work and keep smiling.

gryp

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:31 am

cdawnr said it nicely:

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think all of us mean that you need to connect with them as people first

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A mentor and a friend are two different things, and I'm talking here about mentoring other Jews

which is precisely why you aren't getting through to them. it doesn't sound to me like they think they need a mentor. anybody is willing to have another friend, but a mentor? do you want a stranger to come be your mentor? I certainly wouldn't.

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In order to be a "true" friend there needs to be give and take.

There is plenty of give and take in a shliach position. The most simple one I can think of is financially.

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I can't eat in their homes, I don't really want the secular influences of their kids on my kids, a lot of their wisdom comes from non-Torah sources (Oprah, etc.).

That doesn't mean they have nothing to give. How do you think Rabbis form congregations of committed people? They try and attract them by what each one has to offer to the congregation.
About eating in their homes:
I know a Shliach who does it all the time. How? He brings the food and cooking utensils, and they supply the papergoods.
Pizza Dinners: Shliach brings small toaster oven and frozen pizza.
Barbeques: Shliach brings supplies and food. Host buys papergoods and watermelon.
It is simple. They do it all the time with highly upper-class wealthy people.. It's wonderful, for the hosts and for the shliach and for their friendship relationship.

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Do you have experience with this?

If you are asking me if I am on Shlichus, no, I live in Crown Heights. Shlichus is not what Hashem wants from me, although it took me time to come to terms with that. I was practically trained on the job though, and for a long time, shlichus was all I thought about.

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Are you so stunned by me? Why? Just relax and try and give some wisdom (of which I'm sure you have some) without saying annoying things like "I am STUNNED by you"

For the record, I wrote "I am stunned to hear," not "I'm stunned by you."

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In theory what GR says sounds nice

I beg to differ. I am talking from what I have seen over and over by shluchim. Real life experiences, not hypothetical situations.

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It does not mean that the "friendship" is purely give, every yid in this world can elevate us and we can learn and grow from them all in some way or another.

Absolutely. I have learned the most from the not-yet-frum people I have encountered and worked with. Of course they have what to give!

Most of the time, people are touched by simple favors you do for them. In friendship, because you care.

Lechatchila Ariber

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:55 am

Emuna wrote:

I'm not so sure. A mentor and a friend are two different things, and I'm talking here about mentoring other Jews.

emuna did they ask you to be their mentor. A mentor, (unless appointed in a yeshiva or seminary) is generally chosen by the mentoree.
You don't choose to be someone's mentor it just doesn't work that way

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In order to be a "true" friend there needs to be give and take. I can't eat in their homes, I don't really want the secular influences of their kids on my kids, a lot of their wisdom comes from non-Torah sources (Oprah, etc.). Do you have experience with this? Of course it's all for ahavas yisroel or else I'd be living in a secluded, frum community, which I am not. But there are limits to this "friendship" you are talking about.

you know what? My best friends and I never eat in each others home. It just doesn't work out. most of our socializing is on the phone, or bumping into each other at places...but we are all still friends.

anyway besides all that there is a story told of a shaliach that was sent to a far off place in yupetzville for a couple of days by the Rebbe, for unexplained reasons.
when he got there he didn't know why he was even there. he went about his business, and came back home after the allotted time was over.
The shaliach was very disheartened as he felt he had accomplished zilch.
he didn't meet any Jews in need, he didn't find any shuls that needed a minyan, sefer torah, kiruv etc. nothing... he felt like it was all a waste.

some time later a phone call came in to the Rebbe's secretary...(If I'm telling the story wrong anyone please feel free to correct me, its been a long time since I heard it)
basically this lady calling, from a far off place in yupetzville, who had been cut off from yidishkeit for many years, one friday afternoon (corresponding to the time disheartened shaliach came to visit)
looked out her window and saw....low and behold....a yid, in a hat, tzitzis flying, suit.. etc!!
something stirred inside her and she was inspired that friday to pull out her candlesticks and light shabbos candles.

moral of the story? you don't know what any of your actions might accomplish, whether you find out about it or not, whether it has an affect today or ten years from today. who knows, maybe one day in the future that individual you explained lag baomer too, may reminisce and remember your words, and something may have wheedled its way into his or her heart and start to sprout.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Mar 22 2018, 7:08 pm

brooklyn wrote:

Keep it light and casual. In my opinion appearance is also a big thing. No offense to anyone but many not frum Jews have the impression that frum Jews and especially Chasidim are slobs. Make sure house is always clean and uncluttered and kids are always clean and neat, including having shirts tucked in. Even the way you thow out your trash, make sure that the bins are not overflowing and things are not thrown haphaserdly. (Take a walk down the alleys by Crown Street and you'll see what I mean about the trash.) I work with many not frum people as well as non Jews and believe me what I just said is what I have heard from them.

I know this is an old thread but I just moved to a new house. We're the first Jews on the block. I'm so nervous oor neighbors will think I'm messy.
But I'm expecting, one of y children is extremely difficult and when I have my baby it will be 3 kids under 3.

Fox, I'd especially like your thoughts

Miri7

Thu, Mar 22 2018, 7:26 pm

amother wrote:

Be friendly! Tidy up the front for 5 minutes everyday. We were also the only Jews on our block when we had three under three. We were out playing a lot out front and I got to know a lot of the neighbors. Just be your lovely nice self Smile

With the difficult child - don’t worry what they think about a toddlers behavior - they will be most impressed by your ability to remain calm and patient with him/her.

iyar

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 9:12 am

Emuna wrote:

Lots of great ideas here - but remember, I'm not talking about whether or not they like me. That's not the point. The point is to turn them on to Torah Judaism when they believe they have the "perfect" Judaism (and happy, stable families, etc.) Honestly, I don't care whether or not they like me personally. I love what you're saying about being sensitive and finding that "key" for every Jew, and tapping into it. I will use this advice. You made me rethink my "deep spirituality" method, which I always assume will work for everyone because it worked for me. I'm that type, so I can't relate so well to the Marion-types. Thanks so much Very Happy

Actually the point might just be whether or not they like you!
I don't know how many other people they know who observe Torah and Mitzvos. The observant people they see - you, your family, that coworker with the yarmulka or the one with the funny long skirts and long sleeves in the summer - those are their window to our world.
I liked what a different amother told you about keeping the kids looking neat and the trash outside your house not a mess. Before they open themselves up to hearing detailed explanations about our foreign sounding behavior and practices they need to see us as people they like and might even want to be like.
When people see someone who gives them an idea their lifestyle might be inferior, their defenses naturally go up and they look for things to criticize to put themselves back up on a pedestal. I'm not saying you need to be perfect and your kids have to walk around looking pressed and immaculate at all times, but a neat, healthy, happy family will be more likely to attract them.
The goal isn't to tell them Kol HaTorah Kullah while standing on one foot.
The goal is to open a tiny crack in their hearts to let one drop of light in.

lavenderchimes

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 10:29 am

I didn't read the whole thread, but here are my thoughts:

I try to model my "outreach and education" philosophy and practice on Chabad houses. These families spend a lifetime providing less observant (NOT "secular" -- mind the way you phrase it,) Jews with the opportunity to 1. eat, 2. do mitzvos, and 3. learn something. Our Rabbi once said (after most people had gone home,) that you feed people, and then speak a little Torah while they're eating -- they learn something without really realizing it! I am always working on answering questions based on what my audience can handle -- your goal here is not to be as thorough as humanly possible, which often overwhelms people and makes you look like a zealot. Over the span of 10 years, schluchim see very little progress in your average Jew; this does not stop them from believing that SOME DAY, the exposure to Yidishkeit will click.

These not so observant Jews haven't had the opportunity to experience healthy Orthodox Judaism. You're mission is to model a well-adjusted frum lifestyle. Do so with love and joy, and let Hashem handle the rest. In my opinion, the imperfections are GOOD -- if Orthodox Jews look too perfect, it's discourages others from trying to do better. A messy house and noisy kids are more approachable, and therefore seem more achievable:) Hatzlacha!