How do we tell the kids that dh is not shomer mitzvot?

amother

Magenta

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:40 pm

amother wrote:

I really think that we should not be focusing on whether DH should remind them to daven.
Thats not what OP asked.
Woman! This is not a time to judge. Be helpful!
OP- regarding your question, (I am far from a professional) but I think that as long as your not helping your husband live a lie, and your not lying to your kids. I dont see a need to sit down an tell your kids everything.
They will figure it out on their own slowly at their own time.
You can always show love and respect for your DH, but DO NOT try to cover up what hes doing.
If your kids ask why DH does/doesn’t do something, you can say “tatty does his thing and we do ours” (and maybe even expound a little more to the older kids)
Its a very complicated situation obviously and I wish you the best of luck.
Get some direction from a good therapist and rav.

But that’s just it! She IS helping dh live a lie! By covering for him, going along with it, keeping up fronts, hiding it from the kids, and worst of all allowing him to preach to the kids what he himself doesn’t do is horrific!

amother

Magenta

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks! This is really good insight.
Do you feel you can talk to your parents about this? How about other things?

I keep comparing things to my own childhood. My father was an alchoholic and we never ever talked about it at home at all and it has kind of closed off the lines if comunication about everything else as well. Till this day talking to my parents about anything at all unpleasant is just not an option to me. I don't want that to happen to our kids and the fact that they don't ask anything even though things have obviously changed with dh makes me worried.

Do yourself a favor and don’t listen to any misinformed advice from here! Get yourself and dh into counseling and to a Rov asap, even if you have to threaten divorce ! Dh has the potential to harm your children emotionally and spiritually for life and I know you don’t want that! You’re too close to the situation to see how dysfunctional it is! Pleas get help!

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:45 pm

amother wrote:

Not telling them honestly, and allowing them to grow up thinking it’s ok that their father picks and chooses whether to be frum or not, will naturally teach them that they have the same choice, and can decide as well not to be frum G’f. I’m sure that’s not what OP wants! Therefore she must be honest with them and explain to them that she does NOT agree with her husband”s decision and that it’s NOT the right thing to do.

Unless your kids have the intelligence of a toadstool, they will know that they have the choice of whether or not to be frum. Whether or not their father is a practicing Jew.

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

“Why shouldn’t he?” Because HE DOESN’T and he’s being a complete hypocrite! How does he justify thinking it’s necessary for his kids to daven, but not for him to do so???? How do YOU rationalize it? It sounds like you should somehow think it’s ok for him to not practice what he preaches to his kids!

Clearly he doesn't think that its necessary, but he and OP have agreed that's how they're going to raise the kids.

Haven't you ever been in that position? You think its ridiculous to make a 4 year old cover her elbows, but the school requires it, so you only purchase conforming shirts, whatever your own personal beliefs. Or you present a united front on discipline even if you personally think its too harsh.

thunderstorm

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry but many rabbanim encourage parents to stay together if their marriage is good regardless if one parent is no longer frum. Having an OTD father and having divorced parents makes it a lot harder and more confusing for the kids. I've been a child of that exact situation. I think OP is doing an amazing job in trying to keep the stability of the home.

amother

Beige

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 5:16 pm

amother wrote:

Dh has the potential to harm your children emotionally and spiritually for life and I know you don’t want that! You’re too close to the situation to see how dysfunctional it is! Pleas get help!

Studies upon studies have shown that separating children from their parents for religious reasons such as op's has profound lifelong harmful effects on the children. I've studied mental health and trauma and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of keeping children together with the parents even when parents are not shomer Torah u'mitzvos. I will link the studies when I come across them.

ellacoe

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 8:21 pm

OP, kudos to you for your great attitude and flexibility. This is a very delicate situation, as you don't want to the kids to find out on their own that their father is no longer observant, on the other hand you don't want to sit them down and tell them.

I don't know what kind of community you live in and if they are exposed to different levels of observance, or are in a community of no tolerance. This could influence their reaction to their Father. Either way there could be a lot of confusion.

One of the things that is important for them to see that it is ok for them to still love and respect their father despite his no longer being shomer mitzvos. Your behavior and attitude towards him will help reinforce that.

While it is a different situation, there are some similarities, to parents with OTD children. Many have been able to maintain a good relationship with their children by showering them with unconditional love and acceptance. In these situations boundaries are often set. Do you have an "agreement" with your DH about what is acceptable and unacceptable at home? I.e. not being mechalel Shabat in the home?

These boundaries should be set up for the home as opposed to "not in front of the children". Meaning that they are being set up and agreed to for the sake of the home, and not to hide his lack of observance in front of the children. This will make it seem less deceitful and set up a feeling of respect for the home for both your DH and the children. Even when they know these boundaries could continue to be kept. They will help preserve your home and prevent confusion for the children.

When deciding how, what and when to tell them, consider the following questions; Do you need to tell them all at once, perhaps the oldest first when he is ready or when opportunity arises. How much do you need to tell them?

Consider what you want their reaction to be. When thinking about it personally I think I would want my children to be sympathetic as opposed to angry, or confused or jealous. But everyone is different.

Could you present it in a way that is sympathetic? Mentioning how important I "V'ahavta L"rayacha is etc. and that we need to be kind and caring, towards Dad. Striking a very fine balance of being caring and that it is a sad thing for him that he is having trouble with his emunah right now, without being pitying and sanctimonious.

Strive to create an environment that they feel comfortable asking questions, because they will have questions.

Hatzlacha

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 11:36 pm

amother wrote:

If anyone is giving misinformed advice, its magenta who clearly has some baggage with this topic and it has touched a nerve. 8 posts in the span of like 5 minutes? Something is driving her, so OP, I would ignore her posts totally.

You are the only one in the situation that can be objective b/c you live with it daily. I don't see your life or the situation as dysfunctional, just as a nisayon that Hashem gave you and your kids and IY"H He will give you the strength to get through this. Turn to Hashem and turn to a Rav for guidance. Hatzlacha with everything. Sending you a big hug.

imasoftov

Wed, Mar 28 2018, 3:36 am

amother wrote:

Teaching the kids that it’s ok to pretend to keep mitzvos in front of people while violating them privately is a TERRIBLE lesson in parenting...it teaches them to lie, to be phony, and much worse about frum Keith being disposable. I hope you and he are in marriage counseling to deal with this!

What do you envision a marriage counsellor telling them? He should return to observance even though he doesn't believe in it? He should force himself to believe again?

amother

Natural

Wed, Mar 28 2018, 4:28 am

Oh wow ok...
I'm really happy I posted this cause it really does give me a lot of insight.
Even the outraged 'How did you not tar and feather him already' posts.

I comprimise a lot. I'm forced to see all the shades of gray all the time. So it's good to be remindded of the black and white. Not that I'm gonna stop comprimising, our home is too important to me to just give up on it. But it'll help me make sure I'm comprimising on the right things and insisting on the right things too.

And I can't help but ask all you guys who are yelling therapy. Have you actually been to therapy?
It's not a magic wand that makes all your troubles go away.
It's a hard and long process that if done right might change you for the better but it won't magically make the people around you change anything...

amother

Brunette

Wed, Mar 28 2018, 9:54 am

Just fyi, from the other side - for Magenta and the rest.

I spent a lot of my marriage encouraging and enforcing things I don't do and don't believe in. For example, I never allowed the kids to eat chalav stam because their father was against that. So I would eat cholov stam out but when I went out with the kids, I always made sure to go to someplace cholov yisroel and I would encourage them to give away their cholov stam purim candies, etc. It was just my way of trying to make the marriage work. That's a simple example, there are so many other ones.

Even now, after my divorce (which was not caused by religious differences), I still encourage my kids who live with me to follow certain rules that I don't care about at all. I'm more lax about enforcement, but I still try, to some extent, to encourage the values that are important to my ex husband.

It's just a way to be mentchlich. And my kids are not traumatized or confused and they don't think I'm a hypocrite. They just think that these things are important to tatty so mommy is trying to compromise.

crust

Wed, Mar 28 2018, 10:37 am

amother wrote:

Your posts are so sensible. I love your logic. You are a rare find.