Community of people all like you or community with variety?

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 7:23 am

I grew up in community b - (only coed school) lived in lakewood for a little bit and then moved to another community b, and I have seen kids go both ways. Some (like myself) become stronger from the experiance , some really get pulled a lifestyle of the friends surrounding them.

From what I have seen its a LOT about personality. If your kids are young/ you are planning on having more you need to take a good look at yourself/your spouse.
Are you a leader or a follower?
How important are others opinion of you?
How comftorable are you with doing something different then everyone else?

The kids I knew who where confident in thier families identity where able to say no t things that others where doing without being mean or condesending. The kids who weren't either became "frum snobs" who excluded e/o else or constantly tried to be like the more modern or secular kids/went OTD.

About influences - I was exposed to more in my "TOP" school in lakewood then I was in community b- or b. Generally if the differances are obvious enough people respect that and try to be careful around you. There will be exposure to hearing about alot of TV/media that you don't approve of but not a lot "let me show you this movie awesome"(it was rated R) and "you gotta listen to this hotline with me" (it was an explicit hotline about s-x) that I had in Bnos Yaakov of Lakewood....

mandksima

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 10:02 am

It can definitely go both ways. We also made a difficult decision when finding our community in Israel. We chose diversity and in some ways I regret it and in other ways I know it was the right choice. Well, I don't really regret it. I know the decision was the right thing for us but it didn't mean it was easy. Some standards that I really wanted to maintain had no place here and I couldn't enforce them as no one else was doing them. So, I lowered some standards and have been very happy here. I have a few friends like me religiously and that helps. My older kids have gone through rebellious periods but that could also happen in a completely frum area and there, unfortunately, we would be ostracized. Here, anything goes and no one really pries into other people's lives and they let live.

It was important for me to raise my kids in a place where being a mensch comes before outward appearances of frumkeit. A place where there is a lot of chessed, self-sacrifice and love of Eretz Yisrael and Hashem. I actually found that in a more diversified area. Not everyone here are great role models but no one is trying to pretend to be someone who they aren't. I prefer that honesty as kids see through sheker and they lose more interest in Judaism when they see people are not who they profess to be. In these days, there is a lot of confusion and people are lost in their emunah. In totally frum circles, you can't find yourself and go OTD and then come back without repercussions to your family's future shidduchim, etc. I just couldn't take the pressure of that and felt it would take away our honesty.

My dd did go off for a while but has BH returned. She did it on her own and had the strength of our household that instilled the right values. It was due to Hashem's help as it is not easy. The younger kids have friends more and less religious than them. They really know how to respect all kinds of Jews, even totally secular ones nearby and that knowledge is priceless IMO. I can't take Jews looking down at other Jews. In these days before Moshiach, we all have to come together. I found the best way to do that was in a diversified neighborhood. I left it up to Hashem to help me keep them religious as much as they could. I've tried really hard to instill in them a great love of Hashem and the Torah. They love to do chessed and help others. They don't treat some Jews differently because they are not the same as them. These are the core values that are important to me. They all learn a lot of Torah as well as all of the other subjects. I think it boils down to what kind of home you have. How strong you both are as parents and like others said, the personalities of your kids sort of tell whether or not they'll be tempted to become less religious but it's not an exact science. It really is up to Hashem as you're not throwing them into a bad neighborhood, just one with different people in it. I would think that many of the people who go OTD as adults are ones who grew up very insular and then realized the great big world out there. I can't say which way is better for everyone but I'd rather my kids make their life decisions earlier with honesty and understand the world and hopefully come back if they go off than just pretend to be something they are not and wait till after marriage and kids to become themselves.

The things I miss about really frum neighborhoods are really certain ways that aren't even guaranteed in frum places like the way Shabbos is kept holier - for example, only Torah subjects spoken about instead of politics and such at the shabbos table. I'm sure I am missing an ideal that may not be everywhere anyway. I also don't like the amount of interaction that I see in my area with men and women. Too many boundaries are crossed and it gets too comfortable between the genders when it should be kept more formal to avoid issues. My friends are fine but I constantly feel uncomfortable with other people around who cross social male/female boundaries. I would probably feel that less in all frum areas but if I did see that, the dishonesty would be shocking because the standards should be so much higher. When frum Jews don't act the way they should, I have such a harder time than when people act inappropriately but don't pretend to be any different than what they are. I can choose to stay away from them and have warning. It may not be great but it isn't sheker. I think kids can also grasp that even at a young age. They aren't stupid a pick up on these things quickly.

I really don't like generalizing and don't want to say lashon hara but these are important things to think about. Living in a frum area is easier in the short run as your kids are less exposed but harder in the long run when they learn their little world isn't really all they thought it was and then they may doubt things later on. They may be fine, they may not be at all. There just are no guarantees in life and we all just need to do the best we can and give unconditional love to our kids. I would picture some of your kids going OTD (C'VS) and think about how you would handle that situation in place A or B. You want to be strong for your family and not feel the community has put you in a social bind where you lose your choice. Some disown their kids because they feel it best for the rest of the family's interests and shidduchim when in an insular community. It's so sad but it might be better to be a little bit more modern in certain areas so that a little movement is permissible and doesn't break up a family. These things could also never happen and your family could be fine and you may regret moving in a less insular place.

Tough decision.

amother

Sienna

Wed, Mar 28 2018, 5:22 pm

Thank you all for sharing, you've given me a lot of food for thought.

In particular, I do worry about my oldest dd (early elementary school age), as she seems particularly susceptible to doing what her friends do. But it could go either way with her, as she will have to learn how to deal with it sometime, and I don't know what the right answer for her is. Other kids aren't old enough for it to be clear whether being in a diverse environment would be hard or not.

After reading your comments, I realized what's scaring me most about Community B (diverse). I think what I'm afraid of is that I grew up in a place like Community B and had a love-hate relationship with it growing up. I loved the diversity and the unity and - tolerance is a value which is incredibly strong in me because I grew up in a place like that. I really enjoy from different types of people and find it so important to be able to learn from everyone, as you really miss out on things being around the same kinds people all the time. But religiously, the place I grew up kind of gave me a run for my money, and not just me. We were pretty middle of the road there, maybe on the slightly more modern side and I had friends across the religious spectrum. But a lot of the people I grew up with ended up going to one extreme or the other, well beyond the spectrum of how we grew up, and are now either kollel wives or atheists/no-longer-orthodox (their choice obviously, but not what their parents intended on either end). There was so much unclear about living in a place where what every else does is always acceptable, but would never be acceptable for someone who doesn't do it - like some kind of mysterious double standard and no practicing what you are preaching. I, and a lot of my friends, also had tremendous confusion about why we had to do things a certain way because we are orthodox but all these people can do so many different things and still be considered orthodox. Why should I keep higher standards if I can keep lower standards? Why should I keep lower standards if I can keep higher standards? What is the actual truth in terms of halacha and if there are many truths, why do I have to choose to do things the way my parents do? Is there any truth at all - does anything I do really matter? Although as an adult I ended up within the spectrum of where I grew up, and not too far off from what my parents do (more right wing than my parents, though not very far), I swung wildly as a teenager from trying to be super-insular chassidish (so I do exactly what everyone else is doing and no outside influences) to being a complete atheist (because who can believe in a truth that seemed so subjective). I did eventually come to find Hashem and religion as I think is a correct choice, and the reason I settled into a more right wing space is because what you have to do is more clear cut when you are being machmir and I don't have to figure it out for myself as much. And despite all that and coming to it on my own, I still feel very disconnected from Hashem and Judaism on a personal level, as a result of never understanding what I was trying to connect to as a child because there was no consistency in that around me. You could say everyone connects in their own way and needs to figure that out, but I never had enough guidance to do so - not from parents or teachers - and many of my childhood friends felt the same way. It's like being scarred in a way - scar tissue heals but doesn't regain the feeling it's supposed to and will never be as it should have been. So aside from what actual observance of my kids might turn out to be, I'm terrified of thrusting them into this same space, especially since I feel so unequipped to answer the questions they are going to ask if we live in a more diverse place. (Ok, panic over).

So, back to the original topic, I still find myself drawn to the idea of Community B, but how do you really answer kids' questions about why we do things one way and others do it other ways?