What drives fraud more, poverty or greed? s/o other threads

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 4:35 pm

In another discussion, one poster was blaming the rampant fraud that occurs in many frum communities on the lack of secular education. Of course, this in impossible to quantify. Nobody admits to it, of course.

It would seem to me that if a person is truly poor, it is not fraud to claim government assistance. The problem arises when the income level is actually not poverty but not enough to live on either. That is when the person tries to make his income fit the criteria for government assistance.

Then there is, of course, a cash economy and I am also not sure that it is actual poverty that causes people not to declare income but is more that the income is not enough for the lifestyle while not actually qualifying as poverty.

Then there is actual greed where there is adequate money to do everything legally but the person would rather cheat on taxes or claim poverty that is far from true.

amother

Tan

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 5:33 pm

I'm responding to the subject line, as I may not have the wherewithal to read the post:

Me thinks....poverty, or a neuroception of scarcity, which the larger culture has so successfully implanted in us.

I know ppl irl who began to commit fraud only when they became desperate. When there's no social support within the community, those who are desperate will begin to think of other ways to survive.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 5:44 pm

There is another element that is often found with people committing fraud. There is a sense of the law not being for them. The mindset that the rules are for other people but that they are either above the law or smarter than the law and therefore they can circumvent it or exploit it.

flowerpower

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 5:49 pm

amother wrote:

I smell some cowardly hate here🤔

I think it comes from desperation. Do you think it's so easy to live off government funding? It's a pain in the neck. I am sure many would choose to live comfortably over running to government offices all the time.

leah233

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 5:52 pm

southernbubby wrote:

The biggest driver of fraud is the easy opportunity to do it with no visible victim. As Chazal put it "A thief who doesn't have what to steal also take pride in his honesty"

A wealthy person doesn't have an easy opportunity to cheat on government programs. A poor person doesn't have an easy time cheating clients or overestimating on their timesheets.

I've seen members of both groups very sincerely condemn the other groups for doing one while being guilty of the other.

leah233

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 5:55 pm

flowerpower wrote:

I agree with your first sentence but running to government offices is a lot easier than having a job.

amother

Blonde

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 6:12 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Most have jobs I assume. I don't think anyone frum can live just from a little food stamps and medicaid.

I have a friend who shops at a local Walmart. The local gentiles are able to spend all their food stamps on prepared foods from the freezer section. They send their kids to public school. A frum person would never be able to afford to buy as much Kosher food for the same amount.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 6:16 pm

flowerpower wrote:

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I have no hate or cowardice when I said that. I have come across many people who are not desperate or greedy who have committed fraud or done something questionable.

I am not talking about people who are getting legitamte benefits. I thought that the thread was referring to fraud in general and not just government funding and benefits. I was actually thinking more of signing up for discounts or offers with multiple email addresses, or other similar acts.

Please forgive me if I came off as hateful or cowardly.

WhatFor

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 6:24 pm

amother wrote:

I totally agreed with your message, especially as it's applicable across the board, wealthy or not.

I disagree with the poster who wrote wealthy ppl can't defraud the government. Of course they do, but on a far grander scale.

They're not getting a few dollars in food stamps. They're hiding millions in offshore bank accounts without paying taxes, conducting illegal business schemes with no oversight, defrauding small businesses by not paying them for services and then paying attorneys to prevent them from being able to take them to court....

And then they try to get us to turn on each other by convincing us that the person stealing our hard earned tax money is the single mom who used her food stamps to buy microwaveable beef stew to feed her kids. Divide and conquer.

keym

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 8:09 pm

I think twisted people will find the opportunity for fraud no matter where they are.
But desparate people may come to commit fraud even if they are truly honest person.
Think of a person who is just making ends meet but on programs and a medically fragile. They need medical coverage. Then this family gets a raise but judt enough to put them over the medicaid amount. They will lose free medical for their family, spend money they dont have on insurance and copays. That will be more than the raise. They are desparate because they are facing losing medical, losing their house or starving.
So they may request (if their boss is amenable) a cash raise. No one will know the difference.
But no one will excuse their desparation. Fraud is still theft no matter the reason.

amother

White

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 8:40 pm

keym wrote:

Agreed. I think making sliding scales instead of cliffs would eliminate a significant amount of fraud.

A person won't do something illegally if they can do it legally.

Laiya

Thu, Apr 12 2018, 10:03 pm

I think people commit fraud because the opportunity was too hard to resist, and it felt like a victimless crime.

My heart goes out to them. They are people who made a mistake. And sometimes, it seems the law expects a lot from people, as in Keym's example.

Amarante

Fri, Apr 13 2018, 10:57 am

I think greed is the driving factor and it occurs in rich, poor and in between.

I also think that even with the "poor", greed and not pure physical need is the driving factor or else the population of KY would not have the lowest reported income in the US; extremely high levels of government assistance and yet, from what is reported, a very prosperous look in terms of well dressed people who are not living in what one would expect to be squalor if they were truly existing on their incomes. I am not attempting to open up a can of worms where people start explaining how these indicia of wealth should not occur among those who are taking large amounts of government assistance - suffice it to say that in my personal experience (and in my humble opinion) you take for necessities when there are no other options - and if there are luxuries in your life, then taking is not a necessity. There are many people who forego luxuries rather than be a taker.

Now if one is talking about a homeless person - or a family living in their car - who shoplift a loaf of bread, then it's not greed IMO.