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S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:58 pm
amother wrote:
Implications - yes. She can check eggs.

There is no sudar mitzvah. She doesn't read from the Torah. She doesn't put on a hat, a white shirt, and tefillin. Her appearance stays the same. And she still doesn't count for a minyan.

You can't see the difference?


This response makes me sick to my stomach. She is responsible for her own behaviour before GOD. That’s a big deal.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 10:05 am
The amount of mitzvos keeps getting brought up, it's actually not that many more (though some are lifestyle changing such as Talmud Torah kol hayom and Krias shema bizmana ) and others are Halacha derabonon? (Definitely not deoraisa) such as davening with a minyan.
Anon because the time posted gives away my location !
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BH5745




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 1:59 pm
The first recorded public bas mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan in 1922. Her father lead a REFORM congregation. since then, the tradition caught on with Reform Jews. During the 1950s, conservative Jews began public bas mitzvahs as well. Eventually some segments of the Orthodox community began public bas mitzvah celebrations for girls.

Something that began as a religiously significant reform practice considered even too 'risque,' in the sense of being far from tradition, for even conservative Judaism, somehow became normative within certain segments of the Orthodox community.

Baruch Hashem some communities have found ways to make tznius, beautiful bas mitzvah celebrations for young women. And many have toned down (or never over inflated) young mens' bar mitzvah parties. But the term "Orthodox" does insinuate adherence to tradition, so those who are weary of the recent, American invention of large public bas mitzvah events (as well as over the top bar mitzvah events) have reason to feel as they do, considering both the aforementioned practices deviate substantially from the traditional way bas/bar mitzvahs are celebrated.

As an aside, it's no wonder we see so many ostentatious chassunas today, considering how high many community standards concerning bar/bas mitzvah parties have become. After all if a $10,000 party just covers a bar/bas mitzvah, shouldn't the wedding be much grander?
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 2:14 pm
amother wrote:
I didnt have time to read the whole thread yet.
But this bothers me a lot. Lakewood rw. So when my girls became bas mitzva I did as big as I could within standards. We dont Iinvite classmates but neither do the boys. In a school with 8 parallel classes and lots of rearranging my daughter would want to invite 95 classmates former classmates and friends. So the schools dont let. But boys also.
So we made a really fancy in house party for her for family. Rented tablecloths and napkins. China and silverware. 3 course meal plus a homemade sweet table. She spoke, my husband and I spoke and some grandparents gave divrei bracha.
She made challa by herself with a few friends the day of her bas mitzva, and she said over a synopsis of hilchos hafrashas challa.
My husband learned with her in advance of her birthday significant portions of kitzur shulchan aruch- kashrus, brachos, shabbos, yom tov, ribbis, and a few others. And I learned sefer mishlei and tehillim with her.
No we didnt have a 300 person party but we showed her how important we view her new status.
Oh and we bought her a new dress and earrings and paid to have her hair done.
And after the event I made a photo book for her.
Tznius, special and I spent no more than $700 including the dress because I did the cooking myself and got most of the stuff at gemachs.


Beautiful.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 2:22 pm
amother wrote:
The amount of mitzvos keeps getting brought up, it's actually not that many more (though some are lifestyle changing such as Talmud Torah kol hayom and Krias shema bizmana ) and others are Halacha derabonon? (Definitely not deoraisa) such as davening with a minyan.
Anon because the time posted gives away my location !

So here's my question. I believe in the exact same celebration for a bar and bat mitzvah- party wise. But obviously the boys get a shabbat celebration (family meals in the shul is what we do) bcz. they layn. And the girl (in Orthodox congregations) doesn't. Is that unfair also? In my community many bat mitzvah girls layn megillat Rut or Esther in honor of their bat mitzvahs at all woman gatherings. To me this is a perversion. Like it or not, becoming a bat mitzvah does not make you responsible to now layn the megila. I think this equality thing has gone too far.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 3:59 pm
heidi wrote:
So here's my question. I believe in the exact same celebration for a bar and bat mitzvah- party wise. But obviously the boys get a shabbat celebration (family meals in the shul is what we do) bcz. they layn. And the girl (in Orthodox congregations) doesn't. Is that unfair also? In my community many bat mitzvah girls layn megillat Rut or Esther in honor of their bat mitzvahs at all woman gatherings. To me this is a perversion. Like it or not, becoming a bat mitzvah does not make you responsible to now layn the megila. I think this equality thing has gone too far.



Women may be motzi other women in their personal chiyuv to hear Esther read so why shouldn't a bat mitzva mark her entry into adulthood by reading for other women?
Regarding Rut, there isn't a personal chiyuv to hear it read, at most a communal chiyuv, so there's even less of an issue here than regarding Esther.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 4:10 pm
But why mark the occasion with something so not usually done? In this case challah seems like a more relevant mitzvah. . . Just my opinion
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 9:24 pm
It bothers me that the frum world community wide cost cutting measures are often implemented on things related to girls, such as cutting out seminary in Israel or bat mitzvahs.

I’m very happy that in my community bar and bar mitzvahs are on a similar scale. I couldn’t be comfortable for me and my kids otherwise.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 9:48 pm
fmt4 wrote:
Unfortunately girls are going to feel lesser than in the frum community no matter what. I guess the best we can do is at least make them feel like they are equally important to their parents.


A child's importance to a parent is not measured by how much money a parent spends on them or how much attention they get from the community. That attitude is only going to raise spoiled entitled brats.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 9:51 pm
andrea levy wrote:
This response makes me sick to my stomach. She is responsible for her own behaviour before GOD. That’s a big deal.


I was being facetious. I thought it was obvious. Also, we don't follow a bright line that the day before the girls turn 12, they aren't responsible for their behavior.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 10:31 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
It bothers me that the frum world community wide cost cutting measures are often implemented on things related to girls, such as cutting out seminary in Israel or bat mitzvahs.

I’m very happy that in my community bar and bar mitzvahs are on a similar scale. I couldn’t be comfortable for me and my kids otherwise.


I'm not sure who is cutting out seminary in Israel for girls - where I live everyone goes. And seminary in Israel costs way, way more than yeshiva in Israel - like more than three times the amount, depending on the yeshiva.

Personally, I don't get the point of Bat Mitzvahs. I don't think it's tzniusdik for a girl to be the center of attention in that way. Also, I think that boys have much, much more obligations, so it's a bigger deal that they become bar mitzvah. There is so much more they have to do, and girls can just... go on exactly as before.

Where I live many families do a family thing for the girl, and an hafrashas challah kind of party for the girl and her friends/neighbors. It's a party, but it's just done differently.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sat, Apr 21 2018, 11:07 pm
heidi wrote:
But why mark the occasion with something so not usually done? In this case challah seems like a more relevant mitzvah. . . Just my opinion


Laining megilah provides a young lady who has been through years of Jewish education a much greater sense of accomplishment then baking Challah.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:20 am
BH5745 wrote:
The first recorded public bas mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan in 1922. Her father lead a REFORM congregation. since then, the tradition caught on with Reform Jews. During the 1950s, conservative Jews began public bas mitzvahs as well. Eventually some segments of the Orthodox community began public bas mitzvah celebrations for girls.

Something that began as a religiously significant reform practice considered even too 'risque,' in the sense of being far from tradition, for even conservative Judaism, somehow became normative within certain segments of the Orthodox community.

Baruch Hashem some communities have found ways to make tznius, beautiful bas mitzvah celebrations for young women. And many have toned down (or never over inflated) young mens' bar mitzvah parties. But the term "Orthodox" does insinuate adherence to tradition, so those who are weary of the recent, American invention of large public bas mitzvah events (as well as over the top bar mitzvah events) have reason to feel as they do, considering both the aforementioned practices deviate substantially from the traditional way bas/bar mitzvahs are celebrated.

As an aside, it's no wonder we see so many ostentatious chassunas today, considering how high many community standards concerning bar/bas mitzvah parties have become. After all if a $10,000 party just covers a bar/bas mitzvah, shouldn't the wedding be much grander?


Yes, public Bas Mitzvahs started as a reform idea. But so were these large Bar Mitzvah parties. They started the parties to avoid the religious aspect of the day and to compete with the "sweet 16" type parties their public school classmates had.
150 years ago the boy just got an aliyah- many could not lein. If he was lucky he got some cake and maybe a l'chaim. Many didn't get their own set of tefilin... and if they did most got hand-me-downs. Someone I know mentioned recently that he got at his Bar Mitzvah the Klaf from his great grandfather. Because in Europe it got passed down that way since it was super expensive and most people did not see their grandparents/great grandparents after the age of 13. (Its been checked multiple times and it is still 100% ok!).

So, if we wanted to stick with tradition... then we should stop all these crazy parties. A kiddush at shul for the boys, a Shalosh Seuda meal at home for the girl (if not community appropriate for a kiddush, NOT talking about that here). Cuts down on unnecessary expense. Why create and continue unnecessary burdens on our over-stretched families? Tuition, housing/rent, food... it all is making frum people have a harder time keeping up. Lets get back to the basics. We have way too many "requirements" and community minimums.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:25 am
Mommyg8 wrote:


Personally, I don't get the point of Bat Mitzvahs. I don't think it's tzniusdik for a girl to be the center of attention in that way. Also, I think that boys have much, much more obligations, so it's a bigger deal that they become bar mitzvah. There is so much more they have to do, and girls can just... go on exactly as before.

.


Do you feel it's not tzniusdik for a girl/woman to be the center of attention at her wedding? What is the difference?
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:11 am
amother wrote:
A child's importance to a parent is not measured by how much money a parent spends on them or how much attention they get from the community. That attitude is only going to raise spoiled entitled brats.


But spending 30,000 dollars on a bar mitzvah party because that’s what everyone else in the community is doing will in no way cause kids to be spoiled or entitled. Rolling Eyes
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:21 am
amother wrote:
Implications - yes. She can check eggs.

There is no sudar mitzvah. She doesn't read from the Torah. She doesn't put on a hat, a white shirt, and tefillin. Her appearance stays the same. And she still doesn't count for a minyan.

You can't see the difference?

A sudar is a type of scarf or turban. As for the rest of your points, your mileage may vary.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:25 am
tichellady wrote:
In my community the emphasis is the same.

same here
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:27 am
Aylat wrote:
In the yeshivish and chassidic community there is a change in dress code, not in the MO community or the DL community where I live.

Also I see some boys in more RW communities who change their mode of dress well before 13.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:35 am
amother wrote:
Another thing I forgot to mention... many, or even most bar mitzvas I went to, the bar mitzvah boy made a siyum so that it should be a seudas mitzvah.

In my world, girls can do this too.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:37 am
fmt4 wrote:
But spending 30,000 dollars on a bar mitzvah party because that’s what everyone else in the community is doing will in no way cause kids to be spoiled or entitled. Rolling Eyes


If you followed the other thread and my posts on this one, I could have done a simcha to the same high levels as others. I was in no way competing with anyone. I don't care enough. It was not money that held me back.

I don't allow my kids to compete with each other. I have never once had my kids say that you bought this for him, why can't I get something? The whole idea that the brother has, now the sister must have goes against everything I believe in. That raises entitled jealous adults.

Mature people don't look at what others have and compare.
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