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S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:03 am
Because in Chareidi communities, boys are more important than girls. Their contributions to Judaism and place in the community are more valued. That’s it. That’s really the reason. Not that complicated.
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cream+sugar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:29 am
Yes, spending 30k on a party is extremely tzniusdik. It's only a problem when a girl wants to celebrate being obligated in mitzvos by demonstrating her learning and being a member of her community (rather than just being shoved into the kitchen and told to keep quiet). Clearly that's the major breach of tznius.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:36 am
cream+sugar wrote:
Yes, spending 30k on a party is extremely tzniusdik. It's only a problem when a girl wants to celebrate being obligated in mitzvos by demonstrating her learning and being a member of her community, rather than just being shoved into the kitchen and told to keep quiet. Clearly that's a major breach of tznius.


If my daughter wanted a party to demonstrate her learning, she could have had one. My kids are shy, and this should have been torture to her.

My daughter had exactly the party she wanted within school rules. She would have been kicked out of school if we did a big bas mitzvah in a hall. That would really have made her feel like a member of the community.

As it was, we did go to the top of what was allowed including her friends and female relatives. She doesn't need a bar mitzvah.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:38 am
chicco wrote:
I am all for making girls feel good and not as second class citizens, which I honestly don't believe we are, despite the efforts of some to treat us that way. That being said, I honestly think it's a bit absurd to celebrate a bar and bas mitzvah the same way. That is not to say I encourage over the top celebrations in either case, but as I understand it, a boy coming of age, ie. At a bar mitzvah- we are celebrating that he has reached the point for which he was created- to perform mitzvos. That is the general tachlis of all men. Obviously, each one has his individual tachlis, but in a general sense, they were created to perform mitzvos, and we are celebrating his ability to do so now in a real way. A woman has a different role in the world, which regardless of how many tomatoes are thrown at me for saying this, is much more centered around the home. Obviously a woman is capable of "more" than homemaking, but I do believe (again ducking for tomatoes) that a woman's role in the world in much more focused on creating and sustaining a home in both the physical and spiritual aspects. (A role that I find to be much more powerful than a man's). In fact, the mitzvos that are specifically for woman mostly come into play in the home. (Obviously candles and challah can be done before marriage, but they are again, a huge part of establishing and sustaining the home). I think that's why weddings are much more centered around the kallah. We are celebrating that she got to the stage to be able to fulfill her role as a woman. Again, that's not to say that a woman who does not get married has no purpose, but I do think she is missing out on a big part of what woman are created to do.

Equality shouldn't mean the same. It should mean respect and appreciation for what is real. Men and women are not the same. Both are important, and instead of giving them the "same", they should be given the "same" level of respect as G-d saw fit to bring both into the world with their own strengths, weaknesses, and roles.


With all due respect, both getting married and having children are mitzvos for men - and not women.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:24 am
amother wrote:
If my daughter wanted a party to demonstrate her learning, she could have had one. My kids are shy, and this should have been torture to her.

My daughter had exactly the party she wanted within school rules. She would have been kicked out of school if we did a big bas mitzvah in a hall. That would really have made her feel like a member of the community.

As it was, we did go to the top of what was allowed including her friends and female relatives. She doesn't need a bar mitzvah.


Do shy boys not have bar mitzvah celebrations?
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:32 am
amother wrote:
With all due respect, both getting married and having children are mitzvos for men - and not women.


Techincally yes, but halachically speaking they define a woman's status and role in a much more fundamental way than they do that of a man. And child bearing and rearing are the very reason why women are exempt from many of the mitzvot. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that in traditional Judaism, child bearing and rearing is the essential heart of the female role.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:45 am
Mommyg8 wrote:


Personally, I don't get the point of Bat Mitzvahs. I don't think it's tzniusdik for a girl to be the center of attention in that way. Also, I think that boys have much, much more obligations, so it's a bigger deal that they become bar mitzvah. There is so much more they have to do, and girls can just... go on exactly as before.



What's not tznius about my daughter making a speech in front of her classmates and some extended family?

This claim that for boys things change and for girls they don't. How exactly? Some examples off the top of my head: Both will now fast completely. Both can be motzi adults with brachot - my daughter sometimes makes kiddush for me Shabbat morning, and last night made the sefirat haomer bracha for her aunt who missed a day and can't make the bracha herself. They both have to make sure that they fulfil their own obligations with all the halachic parameters of eg tekiat shofar, lulav, Chanuka candles, matanot laevyonim, megilla, matza. Tzniut - it is now not 'practice' or chinuch but the girl's obligation, the beginning of taking responsibility and learning how to make decisions about her appearance and dress. She also now has kol isha to think about. A boy becomes obligated to daven three times a day with a minyan, a girl becomes obligated to daven one or two tefillot a day. The first is quantitatively more, but the 2nd is also a significant lifestyle commitment.

More importantly than all that - the essence of their actions has changed. Their status has changed. They are adults in the eyes of halacha. The mitzvot that they do are obligations vis a vis Hashem. They need to realise that, not as a burden, but as an exciting new level of responsibility and autonomy. The way this milestone is marked, by their family and by school/wider society, will determine how they relate to it.

I was very moved to see how my daughter took on her new status as a result of the celebration we made for her. We didn't spend lots of money - we self-catered, we did music from a playlist - but the way we did it (btw, grandparents flew in from abroad, aunts, uncles and even 2nd cousins came from all over the country) and the way the school runs its bat mitzva program, had a profound effect on her.

"I can't believe you're doing all this for me," she kept saying: when we booked the hall, when we bought her a new dress. "I feel like it's my wedding or something. I guess it is, it's like I'm getting married to the Torah and the mitzvot by being a bat mitzva."
When I heard her say that I knew that we'd accomplished the goal of the celebration. BH.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:56 am
amother wrote:
Do shy boys not have bar mitzvah celebrations?


It is taken into account. The singing breaks out the moment he picks up the microphone for his speech. Every effort is made for his comfort level.
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pesek zman




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:58 am
etky wrote:
Techincally yes, but halachically speaking they define a woman's status and role in a much more fundamental way than they do that of a man. And child bearing and rearing are the very reason why women are exempt from many of the mitzvot. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that in traditional Judaism, child bearing and rearing is the essential heart of the female role.


Perhaps but few 12 year olds have babies (I hope) meaning they are NOT exempt
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 12:33 pm
Bottom line - in Judaism, men get the main part, and women are just the supporting players. Most of what is being cited here as women’s mitzvos (e.g. getting married, having children, etc.) is just supporting men in fulfilling men’s mitzvos, as those are actually only Mitzvos for men - not women. All communal roles (and most decision making) are reserved for men. Women’s contributions - while necessary - are not equally important to the community. Girls and women may be well taken care of and treated nicely, but they are not valued and respected in the same way as boys and men.

The way that girls/women are treated reflects that reality.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 12:52 pm
pesek zman wrote:
Perhaps but few 12 year olds have babies (I hope) meaning they are NOT exempt


They are - in the same way that I, well past my child bearing years, am still exempt from most mitzvot aseh shehazman grama.
Women, as a halachic category, are exempt.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:40 pm
amother wrote:
It is taken into account. The singing breaks out the moment he picks up the microphone for his speech. Every effort is made for his comfort level.


So why can't this be taken into account for girls? Why can't she have a siyum (on any sefer), a party etc? Why is shyness for a girl a reason NONE get one but for boys it is taken into account? Or are all girls supposed to be shy and if they aren't they pretend so they won't have a bad reputation?
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jerusalem90




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:42 pm
amother wrote:
Bottom line - in Judaism, men get the main part, and women are just the supporting players. Most of what is being cited here as women’s mitzvos (e.g. getting married, having children, etc.) is just supporting men in fulfilling men’s mitzvos, as those are actually only Mitzvos for men - not women. All communal roles (and most decision making) are reserved for men. Women’s contributions - while necessary - are not equally important to the community. Girls and women may be well taken care of and treated nicely, but they are not valued and respected in the same way as boys and men.

The way that girls/women are treated reflects that reality.


Did Jael have "just a supporting role" when she killed Sisera?

Who was the real mover and shaker, Deborah or Barak?

I guess Esther only had a supporting role in Megilat Esther. Mordechai could have married King Ahaseurus himself.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:45 pm
amother wrote:
So why can't this be taken into account for girls? Why can't she have a siyum (on any sefer), a party etc? Why is shyness for a girl a reason NONE get one but for boys it is taken into account? Or are all girls supposed to be shy and if they aren't they pretend so they won't have a bad reputation?


Since Bas Mitzvahs are not done in the community where girls show off their knowledge, there is simply no reason to start something my child would be uncomfortable with.

If my child would want to display her knowledge, I would accommodate her within the school rules.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:46 pm
jerusalem90 wrote:
Did Jael have "just a supporting role" when she killed Sisera?

Who was the real mover and shaker, Deborah or Barak?

I guess Esther only had a supporting role in Megilat Esther. Mordechai could have married King Ahaseurus himself.
.

Great, you named the few exceptions in the whole history of Judaism. Exceptions don’t make the rule.
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jerusalem90




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:56 pm
fmt4 wrote:
.

Great, you named the few exceptions in the whole history of Judaism. Exceptions don’t make the rule.


Historically, have Jewish women been treated as "supporting role only"? Yes, but historically women of all cultures have, and they were before the Torah was given. Biblically, have Jewish women been treated as "supporting role only"? No, as the examples I gave show women are an integral part of the stories that Gd chose to include in his book.

The treatment of women as "supporting role only" is not inherent to Judaism, and doesn't come from Gd's word. It literally comes from men who have always held the power well before Torah was given and don't want to give it up.
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jerusalem90




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:57 pm
Today's rabbis would not allow a woman to be a prophetess. They'd say it's not tzniut for a woman to have such a role. But Gd chose certain women for that role.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:27 pm
jerusalem90 wrote:
Did Jael have "just a supporting role" when she killed Sisera?

Who was the real mover and shaker, Deborah or Barak?

I guess Esther only had a supporting role in Megilat Esther. Mordechai could have married King Ahaseurus himself.


As someone already noted, you are citing the exceptions. . .

And -

Esther is lauded for continuing to listen to Mordechai, rather than for taking responsibility and making her own decisions. Additionally, even though Esther wrote the Megillah, a Megillah that was written by a woman is not kosher, and most opinions are that women do not have the same level of obligation as men, so women cannot be motzi men in reading the Megillah.

Devorah’s generation is denigrated for having a woman as a leader, and Devorah is certainly not held up as a role model for girls/women to emulate. In fact for thousands of years - and even today in many (most?) communities, women are discouraged from learning, performing optional, mitzvos, and/or taking on any public and/or decision-making roles.

Women in Judaism are viewed as ancillary to men and encouraged/praised for remaining in the background (e.g. “hinei b’ohel) and taking the supporting role (e.g. “isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah”) etc.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:42 pm
grace413 wrote:
Do you feel it's not tzniusdik for a girl/woman to be the center of attention at her wedding? What is the difference?


In all the weddings I have gone to, the Kallah is on the girl's side, and the chassan in on the boys side. With a mechitzah in between. The only time the Kallah is on public display is by the chupah (not by Chassidishe weddings, though) and that is only a short time, and anyway, I think every rule can have some kind of exception, no? The chuppah is a nice exception.

A bar mitzvah, on the other hand, is focused completely on the boy, speeches about the boy and about his yeshiva, parents, or whatever, so I don't see how it would be tzniusdig to have that kind of focus on a girl.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:44 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Also I see some boys in more RW communities who change their mode of dress well before 13.


Which RW community is this? Never heard of it.
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