My highly gifted brilliant 17 yo ds says Gemara is boring

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 1:48 pm

octopus wrote:

STOP. you don't think he will sense your disappointment? Just accept him for who he is and whatever disappointment you feel, make sure he doesn't feel it. Your job now is to get him through the rest of high school in one piece without skipping class. I'm just incredulous the rebbie lets him do this.

Op here. He is putting his head on the table during class because it’s very boring. And even falls asleep. So the rebbe lethim skip the class.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 1:51 pm

octopus wrote:

Just wanted to add: We all have to do things that we think are boring. That's part of life. You can't make him love learning, but he can acknowledge his responsibility right now is school, and he has to either attend rebbie class or attend an equivalent. No freebies.

Op here. He is very responsible student. The rebbe just understands that he doesn’t need to be bored in class if he can cover the material of the whole week in an hour and get his A+.

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 1:56 pm

octopus wrote:

That is terrible! I'm horrified. That was the solution the rebbie came up with? Please speak with a principal! If they give the runaround, THAT would be enough of a reason to switch schools.

Why are you horrified? This makes so much sense. The school is working with what they can do.

Do you want to punish him for being smart?

naturalmom5

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:09 pm

I have to take exception, to "Oh, I guess he doesn't like Gamarra". If someone says they aren't intellectual or not into learning anything,maybe.

On the YU Torah website there are many fascinating lectures about quantum physics, string theory , psychology etc.. that ties in many gamarras..
I think its just a lazy cop out and any YU Rosh Yeshiva would agree with me.

Iymnok

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:10 pm

So the Rebbi only sees Gemara as a subject? THAT'S a problem. Is he learning every Rashi? Tosfos? Is he coming up with his own questions? Has he learned all the rishonim on the sugya? What about the Acharonim?
If he could cover in a half hour what the class does in a week, he could soend the time actually learning it. Everyone else is just reading and likely being told some commentary. Some selected Rashi's.
He should be learning with a Rabbi from the community. Is there a kollel there? Can you work out with the principal that he learn with one of the Kollel members?
Your poor son is being fed a very dumbed doesn’t version. He needs the real thing.

Purple2

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:52 pm

Op, like others said, as bright as your son might be, he’s probably not the most brilliant kid out there. If your in a smaller oot city, the level of your Yeshiva is almost definitely not up to par with some of the top yeshivos(unless you happen to live in philly).
If he wants to be challenged he can either switch, as others have suggested or find a chavrusah from the kollel. As brilliant as your son is I’m sure there are some yungeleit that might possibly be a step ahead of him.
I honestly think that your sons problem is not that he’s too “smart” for Gemara, but that he’s uninspired, just not interested. Does your husband learn with him? My husband will learn with my sons and even the brightest ones will be motivated and excited.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:53 pm

Iymnok wrote:

Op here. I have no idea. We are bt. I only know what ds told me. That he is learning the mefarshim and it’s nit a big deal and not interesting. No One suggested that ds should learn with a Rabbi or it could inspire Ds if he learns with a Rabbi.

amother

Gray

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:57 pm

Agree with Naturalmom and lymnok.

Essentially, crafting a legal argument is an intellectual exercise. It's solving a riddle, but within the parameters of certain rules of logic.

If someone is truly brilliant AND has a clear grasp of the underlying logical principles that govern, as well as the subject matter and language, I would think that they should at least appreciate the intellectual exercise of gemara learning.

Maybe not want to spend lots of time with it, maybe say that it doesn't personally inspire him, maybe say that there are some topics that he has trouble relating to, but to say that it is boring on its face makes me wonder if he truly understands it, or has the clear foundational grasp that he thinks he has.

Just like if someone is brilliant, has studied....any field of science, medicine, or math in depth, yet says that the subject is "boring", I would assume that he really doesn't understand it, or hasn't studied it, as deeply as he thinks.

OP, full time gemara learning may not be appropriate for your son. I'm only questioning if it's time now to throw in the towel, or to try to pursue a better avenue for helping him enjoy the learning.

Or, maybe like another poster said, he doesn't really have the necessary skills yet, but his abstract reasoning skills are so high that he doesn't have the patience to learn the lower level skills.

Hatzlocha.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 2:58 pm

camp wrote:

Op here. You might be right. My husband is a bt and ds is in a higher level in learning than dh since dh didn’t grew up in Yeshiva. As to ds not inspired...what does this really mean. Are you supposed to be inspired to find Gemara interesting??? Is it interesting or not? I don’t understand. Is it challenging or you need to be inspired to find it challenging. And what are you inspired by? By your emuna and spirituality or by just the pure Gemara learning?

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:01 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Op here. Ds reads and has a lot of books about quantum physics and all the above and more. My friend’s son is in YU and I understand that it is very mediocre and not up to par with the high level universities.

amother

Gray

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:07 pm

amother wrote:

Acc. to dh, gemara learning can be comparable to law. It's crafting legal arguments within certain foundational principles of logic.

Want to add, this explanation speaks to me as an attorney. I find it hard to imagine someone who has that whole foundation, is brilliant, yet finds *all* of law boring. Sure, there are many CLE classes, and briefs and opinions, I wouldn't be interested in spending ten seconds perusing.

But to say that ALL of law is boring? The reconciliation of two opposing ideas should be, at the least, intellectually stimulating, as Camp says below.

Iymnok

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:11 pm

amother wrote:

She didn’t say how they teach those subjects, rather how they relate to torah and are found there.
Get him in touch with Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb from Yeshivas Ohr Somayach. He was a professor teaching quantum physics.

Purple2

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:14 pm

What’s inspiring is the intellectual debate. The “aha” moment when you finally figure it out.
I think your son jus isn’t”into it” you just can’t say he’s “too smart” for Gemara.
I dont want to “brag” but my husband is really smart too. He studies philosophy, physics etc.. he is a big Talmud chochom as well and finds the Gemara challenging many times. He loves learning and trying to “figure it out”. Gemara is real and exciting to him and that gets passed on to our whole home. I think your son can use some of that type of inspiration.

thunderstorm

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:16 pm

amother wrote:

I know that my smart DS was not motivated when it came to gemarah learning. One of his highschool Rebbes learns privately with him in the mornings before minyan (free of charge, it was the Rebbes idea since he saw my DS's potential and they learn b'chavrusa) . My DS started liking to learn Gemarah after that. This Shabbos my DS 17 and DS 12 were having a debate over a topic they learned in Gemarah. It was regarding mamzerus and was extremely interesting to listen to. There are many halachos that we learn through Gemarah .
The topics are really interesting some times. My DH has read me gemaros of all kinds of topics which are truly interesting and makes you think and discuss. I'm a woman and just from the little bit I hear my boys and DH learn together I find it interesting .

thunderstorm

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:19 pm

amother wrote:

There is definitely more motivation for a boy to learn Gemarah when he can learn together with his father. In this case that's not an option, so learning with another adult can motivate him to want to learn and make it more relatable for him.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:25 pm

amother wrote:

Acc. to dh, gemara learning can be comparable to law. It's crafting legal arguments within certain foundational principles of logic.

Op here. So your dh likes the challenge. It is like the brain teasers that have you thinking and thinking until you get the answer or like I guess like your dh said: law. If my son is uninspired is he going to be interested in such a debate? Because btw he is very big on debates and found and joined a debate club. So why doesn’t he like the debate in the Gemara? I asked him before and he said that it’s not a high level debate and it’s obvious.
It might be that he is not inspired. Unfortunately he had some bad Rebbes and a lot of great secular teachers who adore him. Maybe this is the core of the problem. I’m not sure though.