Inadvertently causing someone pain

momnaturally

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 7:29 am

amother wrote:

If something you do causes someone else tremendous pain, even though you did nothing wrong, rather the other person is very sensitive or has other things going on in her life etc.. are you held accountable? I don’t think anyone can really know the true answer to this question... just interested in hearing others’ thoughts...

If you really truly did nothing wrong and there was no insensitivity on your part then no you are not held accountable at all.
The pain that was caused was from Hashem and he merely decided to do it this way. He would have done it to them regardless of you.
People are not accountable for results and things that happen. They are only held responsible for them due to their intent and decisions they set out to do which they had bechira for. There is no bechira on results only on intent.

iyar

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 12:43 pm

I've been hurt by people saying things to me that I know were not meant to hurt. I'm sure I've managed to do the same thing - say something at the wrong moment and hurt a friend without having any idea that what I said was painful.
I use the moments when I'm the one getting hurt to try to forgive, and hope that I'm forgiven when I do the same thing.
(Of course that only works when it seems there was no intention to cause pain. When someone hurts me and I can't help knowing they're aware of it, it's much harder to find it in my heart to forgive.)
I know I'm not really answering OP's question, just saying how I deal with this sort of thing in my own life. I know Hashem's judgement is perfect, but I can't pretend to know anything about how those cheshbonos are made.

amother

Natural

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 12:48 pm

At this point in my life, many ppl. Insulted me and they did know BC they were told by me. But, saying"she's too sensitive" means the person is minimizing what she did and is not really taking responsibility for causing pain. Rather, saying"she's too sensitive" is blaming the victim. So, someone who apologizes when thinking"she's too sensitive", is not going to be giving a sincere apology BC they are "downplaying" what they did.

At this pt, all the ppl who call me ill on erev tom kippur dont really feel bad for pain they've caused me BC they make comments to downplay what they did.

The ppl who really care about me ask me sincerely if they caused me pain and they dont wait until tom kippur.

Its not about the apology but about how sincere you are. Many times the person can "see" if the apology is sincere.

octopus

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 1:01 pm

momnaturally wrote:

If we take this thought process, you can twist it another way. The person who caused the "unintentional pain" gets punished and this is from Hashem. They would have gotten it regardless. This is the concept of mgalgilin zechus al yidei zakai v'chova al yidei chayav.

I don't know what the real answers are, but I think it's a very slippery slope to say that people are not accountable for the results of things that happen. We can go around in circles about bechira, etc. but as human beings we will never really know what the true answers are. Certainly not in this world. Don't we daven that we shouldn't anger people or make people jealous of us and vice versa. Now I'm rambling. It made so much sense in my head!

momnaturally

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 2:18 pm

octopus wrote:

The first paragraph you wrote is absolutely correct and goes right along with what I wrote. The second paragraph you got a bit confused.
The chovos halevovos says a person only has a bechira the power to decide/choose/plan but not to actually do anything.
However if something ends up occurring irl as a result of our bad bechira (meaning Hashem said it should happen) then we are responsible. Part of our bechira in choosing the right way is davening for the right thing. This does 2 things. We ask Hashem to strengthen the resolve we have to do the right thing. We also ask Hashem that if we should slip up that our mistakes won't lead to consequences irl. The tefilla itself is our exercising bechira for good.
Everything I wrote is straight out of chovos halevovos perek daled.

amother

Green

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 2:25 pm

In this case the pain I’m feeling is completely my own stuff and the other person did nothing wrong. I’m feeling so much pain and suffering and I want to make sure this doesn’t affect her in any way. She doesn’t know how hurt I am, but I am afraid that if she does know it will reflect badly on me, how ridiculously sensitive I am.

At the same time, I recently hurt someone simply by not being there enough for her, because of my own current life circumstances, and although I can be there for her to an extent, I can’t be there for her in the way she wants. And I worry that the pain she is feeling is on my account. But what else can I do?

momnaturally

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 3:06 pm

amother wrote:

Your suffering will absolutely not hurt her.
You daven that Hashem should do her only good that would be a tremendous zchus for both you and her. For you because it displays tremendous emuna that you believe your suffering is from Hashem not from her.
For her because it is so heartfelt that you care and daven for her in light of your suffering I'm sure this is a tremendous zchus.
Regarding the second paragraph other people's well being is not our responsibility.
The only reason we have a responsibility is because of the mitzvah to do so. If you are limited and have a valid reason for not doing the mitzvah you share no responsibility whatsoever in her pain. Hashem is fully capable of taking care of everyone how he sees fit. You can daven for her and that will help her much more than you could possibly do even if you had all the time in the world for her.

amother

Coral

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 4:30 pm

amother wrote:

It doesn't make sense that you would describe yourself as ridiculously sensitive and that the other person did nothing wrong yet you have tremendous pain and suffering. It sounds like you are the other person and you think that she is ridiculously sensitive and that you did nothing wrong. You are writing this to hear you are not accountable or to prove it to the other person who you know is reading it, and you want her to see these replies, to prove your point. Maybe you can't acknowledge how you actually hurt her, and are not describing it correctly here.

Following this thread, the way its been written doesn't match your perspective. It seems you are trying to prove to yourself or the other person that you did nothing wrong. This reminds me of a situation which has much more factors. Perhaps you did do something wrong and the person wants acknowledgement that you've wronged her.

amother

Coral

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 4:36 pm

For example, perhaps you made hurtful and condescending comments to her.
Perhaps you also complained about her to others that also hurt her with comments as a result.
Perhaps you embarrassed her in front of multiple people with hurtful insulting or private comments.
Perhaps you spoke negatively about her to both adults and kids.
Perhaps she lost support from others because of you.
Perhaps there is more.

amother

Green

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 4:40 pm

The only person I hurt recently is as I wrote above someone who wants me to be there for her more than I am able to at the moment because of a lot of chaos in my life. Which I explained to her. And can still be there for her but not in the way she wants. If that is you I am genuinely sorry. The person who hurt me did absolutely nothing wrong, but I am suffering from what happened. Not much proof I can bring, but why on earth would I lie on an anonymous forum posting as anonymous?

amother

Coral

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 4:57 pm

sorry, just expressing pain to someone else who probably doesn't care, and if she would read it, would probably ignore or attack me, so I should stop.

I'm sorry for your pain and hope things work out.

I am in a lot of pain myself from a different situation with some similarities.

if anyone figures out who I am, please don't embarrass me here by pointing out anything I did wrong or by saying anything wrong about me. thank you.