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Logical premonition in the Torah?



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amother
Navy


 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 6:00 am
Looking for sources and information about logical premonition in the Torah. Like when you see ch"v a kid going down a certain path and you feel "she will become an actress and go otd" based on the personality and actions of your daughter. So obviously you want to try to push away the negative thoughts, because the thoughts themselves can be destructive. But what if you just can't push them away? Is that like a warning sign so that when the inevitable happens it's not so painful because you anticipated it?
Would prefer if you answered based sources rather than just your logical thoughts.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 6:25 am
I guess Yishmael's behavior was a hint to the future. But Hashem saved him in the desert anyhow. And that's the more important message, I think. Teshuva is always possible.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:11 am
We don't have neviim today.

I think it's wrong to decide that Hashem is trying to send us a particular message based on things that happen or that we observe.

If the example of the child is a real life example of your own dc, I urge you to try to find a parenting mentor or therapist who can help you learn to shower your dc with unconditional love.
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momnaturally




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:25 am
amother wrote:
Looking for sources and information about logical premonition in the Torah. Like when you see ch"v a kid going down a certain path and you feel "she will become an actress and go otd" based on the personality and actions of your daughter. So obviously you want to try to push away the negative thoughts, because the thoughts themselves can be destructive. But what if you just can't push them away? Is that like a warning sign so that when the inevitable happens it's not so painful because you anticipated it?
Would prefer if you answered based sources rather than just your logical thoughts.

I would add to what the last poster wrote.
Hashem created everyone with bechira. To say that someone was created to be a rasha or tzaddik is antithesis to the entire Torah.
To say based on what we see we would predict something is bordering on Avoda Zara and false prophecy. No one can predict the future unless it's from Hashem.
If you do see character traits and tendencies in a child to do certain things that is Hashem guiding you on how to raise them through understanding them and finding ways to help them channel their strengths and overcome their weaknesses to serve Hashem.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 2:27 pm
amother wrote:
We don't have neviim today.

I think it's wrong to decide that Hashem is trying to send us a particular message based on things that happen or that we observe.

If the example of the child is a real life example of your own dc, I urge you to try to find a parenting mentor or therapist who can help you learn to shower your dc with unconditional love.


I'm not OP, asking for myself. Can people have sparks of nevua even if they are not neviim? I had a dream where HaShem answered a question for me. Could HaShem have used the dream to give me a message, or was the dream purely a figment of my imagination?
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momnaturally




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 2:53 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not OP, asking for myself. Can people have sparks of nevua even if they are not neviim? I had a dream where HaShem answered a question for me. Could HaShem have used the dream to give me a message, or was the dream purely a figment of my imagination?

There is a such a concept but I think a lot of things have to occur in the dream in order to be considered legit.
A knowledgeable Rov will probably know all the conditions or will be able to find out for you. Generally most dreams are either nonsense or what we thought about during the day.
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OutATowner




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 29 2018, 3:04 pm
Ben sorer u'morer?
it's not a premonition, but more like a prediction of natural consenquences
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 30 2018, 11:03 am
Please if c'v it is a real ex, know that kids change their mind 15 times. I wanted to become an actress. I even applied and got into an actor school, my poor parents!!! And you know what? I left on my own because I felt it wasn't compatible, despite their real respect for me and that they never asked me anything strange. If anything they guarded their speech around me lol

If your child is a young adult and doesn't change their mind, get them contact with the shomer shabbes actor league (sorry don't know the name, it's in America).
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miami85




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 30 2018, 1:06 pm
amother wrote:
Looking for sources and information about logical premonition in the Torah. Like when you see ch"v a kid going down a certain path and you feel "she will become an actress and go otd" based on the personality and actions of your daughter. So obviously you want to try to push away the negative thoughts, because the thoughts themselves can be destructive. But what if you just can't push them away? Is that like a warning sign so that when the inevitable happens it's not so painful because you anticipated it?
Would prefer if you answered based sources rather than just your logical thoughts.


I learned in the English book based on R' Volbe's teachings on chinuch Planting & Building in Education: Raising a Jewish Child, but I've seen this thought elsewhere as well, that children are our "trusts" we are supposed to provide a nurturing environment, educate them "al pi darkum" but they have bechira and parents are not held accountable if children make their own choices. We are still supposed to love them and tell them we are there for them. Its a short sefer, but I found it worthwhile.
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Mon, Apr 30 2018, 3:11 pm
I think as frum Jews we need to be careful not to read more meaning into things than is actually there. even if we are inclined to do so. Not everything is straight out of a torah source. There are plenty of things that are in the “common sense” jurisdiction. And further, just because something doesn’t have a torah source, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

* side note - some people use the torah to give them answers they want to hear, and reassurance for what they want to do. I don’t think life works that way. (Anyone can mainupulate the torah to suit their own agenda.)
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amother
Mint


 

Post Mon, Apr 30 2018, 4:46 pm
I have a dd who has nevua dreams. Two daughters actually but I'm referring to the older one now. The only explanation for me is that Hashem was telling me I have a dd with a very special high soul and the reason it was so important for me to know this was because I would need LOTS of strength to deal with her teenage rebellion. This girl is remarkable and has gone off the derech a bit and then has come back. Is so passionate and full of love and loyalty but I truly believe that if I didn't get an idea early on how special she is, I really may not have had the personal strength to keep on working with her, giving her unconditional love and supporting her even though her choices broke my heart. I feel many mothers would have given up on her, we almost were forced to throw her out and the only reason I was able to continue was because I could see her potential. Her having special prophetic dreams that were exactly on target sort of shook me up and told me to take her more seriously. That even if she falters, her potential is super great and it is my responsibility not to give up and keep giving her a good sense of security so she could grow.

I really can't believe I am admitting to this. Every mother should instinctively feel that every child is great. But really, parents can only take so much. It sounds horrible but there were years where she was violent, abused me, was a terrible person to live with and so difficult to like. I can't believe my own strength. I love her so much and always loved her but one needs more than love to make it through ok with this kind of child and I KNOW Hashem gave me the signs of dreams to give me the proper strength.

This sounds crazy, I know but the OP brought this idea up so I thought I'd share.

My second dd has even more special nevua dreams but I really hope Hashem is not giving me this test again!

BTW, I have spoken to quite a few rabbeim and these dreams are considered prophesy. Legit although hard to believe. But you know what, even if they didn't come true, it still would have been the message I needed to hear and would have done its job. Remember nevua was only recorded in the Tanach when it was for future generations to learn from otherwise it wasn't recorded. There were hundreds of thousands of neviim that only spoke truth for their generation. My dd was given this nevua as a message for me as I know no one else would benefit from it but me.

So my point is - if it can be used for good like in my case to give me strength and optimism, then great, use it as such and I believe it is a positive message from Hashem. If it will make you down and depressed and you look at this child as a failure - ignore it because it is coming from a negative place (yetzer hara) and Hashem would never give you that message because there is always hope. Always believe in the best possible outcome.
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