Need help from experienced mothers of teen daughters please!

FranticFrummie

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:58 pm

amother wrote:

OP, this is not a direct response to your post.

When I was a teenager, my mother was not in an emotionally healthy place. I felt extremely protective of her, her needs and her feelings. I would have never dared ask for a new skirt, let alone argue. It took me years to understand how wrong and unhealthy the whole dynamic was.

Now, when I see teenagers clearly express their wants and needs to their mothers, and maybe even go a bit overboard in the chutzpah department, it actually makes me feel good.

It shows that the parent is doing something right, helping the child come into their own sense of identity, and understand their own wants and needs without unhealthy manipulative tactics or guilt.

I know this doesn't really help you solve this particular situation, but I wanted to just give you that boost. I think other posters here had great suggestions.

I'm sorry for your past experiences. I also have mental health struggles, and I work full time not to put DD in the position of being my care taker.

When she was younger she used argue with me a lot (B'H, not so much these days, but still occasionally.) I went to a child psychiatrist, and they explained to me that she argued with me because she felt safe, and knew I would love her anyway. She never argued with people she didn't feel safe with. I remember that now when things get rough between us.

keym

Mon, May 07 2018, 3:04 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I hear what you are saying and it very much explains society today. We are human and it is almost impossible not to care at all about our image. However, making sure we look a certain way to get others to think a certain way about us, is purely a societal pressure, not a Jewish concept. I understand why mothers want to protect their childrens image to how the appear to others, but it's all due to a society that judges. Technically, why should someone see something differently just because a skirt is 4 inches or 1 inch. What counts is the pnimis. Unfortunately due all the judgement we receive and societal pressure, people don't do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, they do it for other non-ruchniusdig reasons. I just think it's a good point to start teaching our children that we do what's right for the right reasons. It'll bring up much healthier, well-balanced children.

Note, this is not at all any way to put down the OP. Most mothers are like that, since we all fall to societal pressures. I just wanted to elaborate on a point I noticed.

You make a lot of good points.
The thing I always tell my dd when dealing with things like shorter skirts is that it doesnt really matter halacha or not in these types of cases. She (and I) signed to the school that skirts will be 4 inches so we need to keep our word.
Furthermore if 4" is the school rule and she shows up in front of teachers and peers 1"she will be branded as a rebel and treated as such same as the girl who consistently skips class, the girl who doesnt do classwork and the girl who gets her license against the rules.
Tznius happens to get everyones goat.

amother

Violet

Mon, May 07 2018, 3:10 pm

I think we need to expect teens to compare us. To think they know everything better. (In your daughters mind she imagines that she would be wealthier as an adult)

I don’t argue with their perceptions. Nor do I take it personally.

I would reflect on the feeling. “Youre feeling frustrated that all your friends have so much more stuff than you. You are angry that we can’t live the same way.”

And that’s it.

She’s normal and your normal.

Teens rant and rave. They need some understanding, and some quiet boundaries.

Then they grow up and we say, thank god! Over and over....until they complain about that.

amother

Cobalt

Mon, May 07 2018, 3:10 pm

Fox wrote:

This isn't really about skirts, tznius, shopping, or money. There are two things going on: getting mom's goat and saving face.

How Do You Get Your Mother's Goat?
You find out where it's tied, of course. Teenage girls (and even formerly teenaged girls, I have found) are experts at knowing where your "goat" is tied.

So when they make those sharper-than-razor comments that wound us all to the quick, they are responding not to objective facts, but to our insecurities, worries, disappointments, and fears.

There is only one way to play this: move your goat. And keep moving that goat as long as necessary. Make up your mind that you are not going to show how hurt you are. When she makes a comment about money or lack thereof, act as if you have absolutely no idea what she's talking about. When she describes the wonderful lives of her friends, who coincidentally have more money, act genuinely pleased for them. "Wow! A trip to the Bahamas! How great! I hope they have fun!" Nobody uses an arguing tactic that doesn't work, so she'll gradually realize that her arrows aren't having the desired effect.

When you're able to camouflage your hurt feelings adequately, feel free to up the ante and actually joke about her little digs. When she says something like, "And I can't buy a new one because you and Dad never have any money," you can say something like, "I know. Popping for that Lamborghini last month was probably a mistake."

This is not to suggest being callous to your DD's genuine disappointments -- just refusing to allow her to manipulate your insecurities or stresses.

Saving Face
Teenagers have a tremendous sense of their own dignity, and some have more than others. When you back them into corners where they will be forced to admit stupidity or naivete, they will fight like rabid animals. I suspect that's what happened here. DD felt that her judgment or commitment to tznius was being challenged, so she dug in her heels.

People are more willing to accept responsibility and make needed changes when we don't rub their noses in it.

You know, we know, and your DD knows that the skirt was too short when she bought it. Who knows why she got it; maybe it had something to do with the phases of the moon. But act as surprised as she seems to be. "Huh! It's too short now. I wonder how that could have happened. Well, if it's too late to take it back, we'll have to think of another solution." Don't publicly affix blame. Focus on problem-solving. When your DD is allowed to maintain a little dignity, she's more likely to learn from the episode and do better next time.

Hatzlacha!

Fox, I love your style, but I am a really emotional type and find it hard to hide my feelings toward kids. My kids are not teens yet, but I'm already having similar type difficulties. How do you get to that point of being able to "move your goat" that way if you understand that logically that is the way to go, but find it hard to put it into practice?

sanon

Mon, May 07 2018, 4:10 pm

amother wrote:

This might be extending the metaphor a little too much, but what about inviting your children to "pet the goat." What I mean is, admit to you children that you wish you could provide more too, empathize with their being upset, and then invite them to join you in coming up with a "good enough" solution based on the limitations of your situation. I also couldn't hide my feelings from the kids, nor would I want to. Letting them know honestly how I feel has worked well for me, along with letting them know I understand how they feel.

Fox

Mon, May 07 2018, 4:13 pm

amother wrote:

It's all about acting.

Really, forget those silly little prizes given out by Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and the Broadway League/American Theatre Wing. Those actors have lines, costumes, and get to rehearse. For us moms, it's all improv.

The real acting awards should be given out in some of the following categories:

Best Performance by a Mother of a Teenage DD Whose Hair Is Too Straight
Best Performance by a Mother of a Teenage DD Whose Hair Is Too Curly
Best Performance by a Mother of a Teenage DD Whose Skirt Is Too Short
Best Performance by a Mother of a Teenage DD Whose Skirt Is Too Long
Best Performance by a Mother of a Teenage DD Who Thinks the Kitchen Is Too Messy
Best Performance by a Mother of a Teenage DD Who Thinks Her Mom Has OCD Because She Doesn't Like Leaving Food Spills on the Floor

You get the drift . . . any and all of these conditions can result in foundation-jarring slamming of doors, tears, and snarky remarks that make you wonder why you didn't just get a dog.

There are lots of things you can do to build your defenses against your kids hurting you, and I don't want to derail the thread too far. Basically, start by thinking of your kids as a job rather than extensions of yourself. Distance yourself from their approval or disapproval of you. Try to remember that part of their job is to individuate themselves from you, and one of the ways they do that is by "getting your goat." And one of the ways you teach them to individuate themselves in healthier ways is by not taking the bait.

Also, remember that everything you do is instruction. When you allow yourself to get visibly upset by pre-teen snark, you are teaching them that confidence and self-esteem can be easily undermined by other people's obnoxiousness. That's not a lesson you want to model.

I guess, in short, just remember that you're cooler than they are, and keep reminding yourself of that. You've been places, seen things, and lived through times that they can only imagine. Even when you're 119 and they're in their 90s, you'll still be cooler.

It's only human that their little barbs hurt like heck. But like the old deodorant commercial used to say, "Never let them see you sweat."

simba

Mon, May 07 2018, 4:18 pm

Fox wrote:

One day I'll be cool like you. I think I say that after reading every post of yours!

Fox

Mon, May 07 2018, 4:28 pm

sanon wrote:

I also couldn't hide my feelings from the kids, nor would I want to. Letting them know honestly how I feel has worked well for me, along with letting them know I understand how they feel.

In theory, this is true.

The problem a lot of mothers have with it is this: you can only be invited to pet the goat after it's been established that you respect the goat. If the respect hasn't been established, then petting the goat just gives more ammunition to the goat-getter.

Let me get out of the barnyard with a better example.

Let's say Chani makes derogatory remarks about her mother's cooking and cleaning skills whenever she's frustrated or the two of them have a tiff. Now, Mom is indeed challenged in these areas, and it causes her a lot of pain. Chani's snotty remarks are like a knife in the heart.

Chani has to learn first that using her mother's personal weaknesses to score points by being hurtful whenever they disagree is not going to work. So at some point, Chani's mother is going to have to find a way to discourage Chani from doing that. This is not only a matter of self-preservation, but also a matter of chinuch.

However, once Chani has learned that personally hurtful comments will not work to her advantage, I agree completely -- she can be invited to pet the goat. If she makes a comment that hits too close to home, it's okay for Mom to say, "You know, I feel insecure about my cooking, so that hurts me more than you probably meant for it to."

I had a conversation that went something like that with my 23-year-old DD not too long ago, and she gave a cursory apology and then paused for a long time before saying, "The thing about you is that you're very secure in your insecurities." I thought that was the perfect way to put it.

So if individual kids can be trusted to pet your goat, that's a great goal. A lot of kids, though, and especially teenage girls, need to learn that petting Mom's goat is a privilege, not a right.

amother

Khaki

Mon, May 07 2018, 5:04 pm

Fox wrote:

Hi Fox, this is the Op, I was waiting for you to post! As usual, you are the queen of good parenting advice for teenage girls. Can you be the official teen-parenting coach on imamother? I'm being serious here...can I post headlines like "Fox! Please help with latest teenage daughter incident!". Is that against imamother rules?

And thank you, Fox, I am so appreciative for your understanding of exactly the issue, and not getting caught up in the minutiae of skirt inches, which never bothered my daughter anyway. Thank you for your wisdom, I want so badly to tame all my goats so I can be the role model you describe!

Fox

Mon, May 07 2018, 7:58 pm

amother wrote:

Lol! You can always PM me or email me at my public email, foxprose@gmail.com. I try to answer people pretty quickly. Of course, my advice is worth exactly what you're paying for it, so take it with a whole lot of salt!

I'd love to tell you that this will all be over in a couple of years, but it's like toilet training -- it's three steps forward and two steps back and lots of accidents along the way. And you never really trust them to remember to go to the bathroom before leaving the house.

I enjoy imagining scenarios in the homes of the rich and/or famous. Some of these are based on gossip, and others are just from my imagination. Apparently there actually were some meltdowns a few years ago when the Gates girls weren't allowed to have iPhones -- their father insisted they use Microsoft devices. Just wait until the Zuckerberg girls are old enough to be unfriended by a popular girl at school. The wailing in the Bezos household should start any second -- nobody else has to be homeschooled and learn math the Asian way! And Londoners should batten down the hatches when Princess Charlotte of Cambridge learns the fine art of door slamming. The doors of Kensington Palace won't have had such a workout since Grandma Diana was in residence.

In other words, money, power, and status are useless . . . we are all truly equal when it comes to teenage daughters.

keym

Mon, May 07 2018, 8:03 pm

Fox wrote:

Fox you crack me up with your way with words.
And it rings so true.
I have just one daughter and its bad enough so I hereby award you the winner of Mom of Multiple Teenage Girls Who Lived to Tell the Tale and Keep Her Humor Intact.

dancingqueen

Mon, May 07 2018, 11:11 pm

mommy201 wrote:

OP, you sound like an amazing mother! For real! I don't have much experience with teenagers but one thing I noticed you wrote, that may help. You wrote, that your daughter wouldn't want her friends/teachers to judge/look at her a certain way. This is putting emphasis on that what other people do/say/look, matter. Think of it the other way around. Let's say she was going to an event where everyone did wear short skirts, would you tell her that she should wear a short skirt so that no one should judge her? I assume not. Maybe emphasize to her that the principles that you and hopefully she holds dear, is because it is the right thing to do and not because other people will talk/look..... We should want to do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not because of peer pressure, which normal teenagers have too much of it already. Let's not add to it. Perhaps if you show her that you don't care what other people think, you do what you think is right because it's right, that might help alleviate some of the peer-pressure she is going through.
Regarding the comparing to her wealthier friends, that must be so hard since every parent want to give to their children and keep them happy. Just empathize with her when she brings it up and agree that it is hard not to buy everything you see. The validation may help her feel more at peace with herself.

Right but also you can't tell her to worry so much about what other people say, do, and think of her in terms of tznius, but then get upset when she compares herself to the friends of her peers in terms of material possessions. It's kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth and teens are very sensitive to that.

Chana Miriam S

Mon, May 07 2018, 11:35 pm

MitzadSheini wrote:

You are AWESOME op. I don't have any daughters so I am not qualified to respond. But your humility is inspiring. Ask HKBH to help say the right things that will further inspire yourself and your daughter to do that which is correct.

IMHO you need to lay out the facts and let her decide. Say something like -

I hold 4 inches below the knee is required. But others hold differently. The skirt is definitely not assur but people may judge you.

In the end it's your choice. You can wear it, we can try to find a way to extend it (if that's possible) , or I can come with you to get something new. We can manage your problem. I trust you to make a sensible decision, but I'm here if you need my input.

Great answer

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, May 08 2018, 6:37 am

I have 4 teenage daughters. Just to give a little benefit of the doubt to your daughter...it's possible she grew a little since the purchase. Fine, the length was probably unacceptable anyway, but it might not of looked as bad when she initially tried it on and could have been "close enough" (I grew 3/4 inch at 18!)
Anyway, you did great! You stated what you want, and she knows you aren't backing down. We want our teenagers to start being independent and leading them in that direction, however we all know (teen included) that they still want and need our guidance.
Her reaction was totally normal. The drama, the storming off, the harsh words. Try not to take it personal. Chances are she'll be a sweetheart again an hour later!!!
Now for a solution: Give her options that are acceptable to you and let her decide what she would like: can she use a skirt extender?, can she go to the store and make an exchange for something similar? Is there a hem you could let down or can you add lace, a ruffle, or piecr of fabric? You may have to contribute a little cash, but in the end you'll get the results you want and she will be happy.

imasinger

Tue, May 08 2018, 9:50 am

So much wonderful stuff on this thread!

I just want to add one more thing, learned from classes in parenting teen girls.

To add to Fox's goat analogy, often, teens can't see anything else but the problems their own goat is having. The ways that they get to a parent's can often be unconscious.

Your teen is likely to think that the zit on her forehead is the most important (and most humiliating) thing to happen at the chassane she attends. It's not a tiny dot; it fills her own vision, and therefore, everyone else's.

In younger years, your approval means a lot. In teen years, it still does, but it's complicated by the need for peer approval. When the two come into conflict, a teen can be distressed and overwhelmed.

It's helpful to validate those raging emotions. "I remember worrying what everyone would think when I was your age, it was no fun."

It's helpful to provide suggested solutions in as factual a way as possible, giving her maximum power. "I find that when I have a skirt that's too short, it makes sense to decide whether to exchange it and buy something else to update my outfit, or alter it.". Then, step back to allow her to get past the initial response of "none of those is any good, no matter what, everyone is gonna think I'm the biggest neb in the world."

It's helpful to have conversations at non stress times about your values. Why you choose not to make earning $500,000 a year your top priority. What things matter more than money or possessions. How the news reflects the way adults respond to peer pressure, ask for her take, and offer yours. Put the theory into place separately, so the values are accessible to her at times she is too stressed to hear you.

And of course, never stop telling her how special you think she is. Pay extra attention to catching her doing well in those middos you most want her to grow in.

Hang in there!

try2Bbestmother

Tue, May 08 2018, 11:41 am

I just saw this thread now and would like to add my two sense dealing with 5 teenagers-

about the money or anything else that they say I am not good enough.

First I validate (if I am too triggered I come back later) I can hear how important it is to fit in with your friends......money is from Hashem. If I had more I would share it all with you!

I can see how you would like to stay out late at night like "all" the other kids.

Then --
I say I am so happy that you are going to be the best mother/father to your children I can't wait to see it.
This moves the focus to them in a positive encouraging way
and I find it helps a lot; of course not always.