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Anyone with an INTJ husband?
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amother
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Post Mon, May 21 2018, 7:06 pm
I'm wondering if anyone has an INTJ husband and how they deal with the communal aspect of Judaism... and any other area of judaism that you find relevant.
Thank you!
For those you aren't familiar with what INTJ stands for it's a personality type
from wikipedia

"INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake ... INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait of combining imagination and reliability. Whatever system an INTJ happens to be working on is for them the equivalent of a moral cause to an INFJ; both perfectionism and disregard for authority come into play. Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel ... This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals ... Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense.

— Marina Margaret Heiss[13]
INTJs are analytical. Like INTPs, they are most comfortable working alone and tend to be less sociable than other types. Nevertheless, INTJs are prepared to lead if no one else seems up to the task, or if they see a major weakness in the current leadership. They tend to be pragmatic, logical, and creative. They have a low tolerance for spin or rampant emotionalism. They are not generally susceptible to catchphrases and do not readily accept authority based on tradition, rank, or title.

INTJs are strong individualists who seek new angles or novel ways of looking at things. They enjoy coming to new understandings. They tend to be insightful and mentally quick; however, this mental quickness may not always be outwardly apparent to others since they keep a great deal to themselves. They are very determined people who trust their vision of the possibilities, regardless of what others think. They may even be considered the most independent of all of the sixteen personality types. INTJs are at their best in quietly and firmly developing their ideas, theories, and principles.

— Sandra Krebs Hirsch[14]
Hallmarks of the INTJ include independence of thought and a desire for efficiency. They work best when given autonomy and creative freedom. They harbor an innate desire to express themselves by conceptualizing their own intellectual designs. They have a talent for analyzing and formulating complex theories. INTJs are generally well-suited for occupations within academia, research, consulting, management, science, engineering, and law. They are often acutely aware of their own knowledge and abilities—as well as their limitations and what they don't know (a quality that tends to distinguish them from INTPs). INTJs thus develop a strong confidence in their ability and talents, making them natural leaders.

In forming relationships, INTJs tend to seek out others with similar character traits and ideologies. Agreement on theoretical concepts is an important aspect of their relationships. By nature INTJs can be demanding in their expectations, and approach relationships in a rational manner. As a result, INTJs may not always respond to a spontaneous infatuation but wait for a mate who better fits their set criteria. They tend to be stable, reliable, and dedicated. Harmony in relationships and home life tends to be extremely important to them. They generally withhold strong emotion and do not like to waste time with what they consider irrational social rituals. This may cause non-INTJs to perceive them as distant and reserved; nevertheless, INTJs are usually very loyal partners who are prepared to commit substantial energy and time into a relationship to make it work.

As mates, INTJs want harmony and order in the home and in relationships. The most independent of all types,[15] INTJs trust their intuition when choosing friends and mates—even in spite of contradictory evidence or pressure from others. The emotions of an INTJ are hard to read, and neither male nor female INTJs are apt to express emotional reactions. At times, INTJs seem cold, reserved, and unresponsive, while in fact they are almost hypersensitive to signals of rejection from those they care for. In social situations, INTJs may also be unresponsive and may neglect small rituals designed to put others at ease. For example, INTJs may communicate that idle dialogue such as small talk is a waste of time. This may create the impression that the INTJ is rude or in a hurry—an impression that is not always intended, and may not be true at all. In their interpersonal relationships, INTJs are usually better in a working situation than in a recreational situation."
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 7:56 pm
It sounds like my husband has this personality type.
What are your questions related to Judaism?
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amother
Orange


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:16 pm
my dh finds dealing with rabbis, having to be around people so much since davening with a minyan is expected, hypocricy, gemarah learning... so was wondering how other INTJ guys deal with it? He just often feels very lonely in a frum community, regardless of the community.
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amother
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Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:20 pm
My dh has some of the characteristics as well. When it comes to Jusiasm he has ahrd time with daas torah. He feels just because you have smicha does not mean you automatically deserve all the kavod given to you. I think stems from his experiences with "Daas Torah" growing up and how they turned a number of his friends off the derech. As well as other personal experiences.
What have you been experiencing OP?
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:21 pm
amother wrote:
my dh finds dealing with rabbis, having to be around people so much since davening with a minyan is expected, hypocricy, gemarah learning... so was wondering how other INTJ guys deal with it? He just often feels very lonely in a frum community, regardless of the community.

Very similar here. He's struggling with Judaism greatly.
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amother
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Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:36 pm
taupe how do you handle it? My dh actually thinks yidishkeit is emes so he stays frum but its just so hard for him so I was wondering if anyone's husband has this personality type and doesn't have as hard of a time.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:36 pm
Fascinating, my dh does sound like the description in the OP, and I relate to some of the comments.

Not struggling with Judaism, but a rav or gadol has to really earn his respect.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:39 pm
amother wrote:
taupe how do you handle it? My dh actually thinks yidishkeit is emes so he stays frum but its just so hard for him so I was wondering if anyone's husband has this personality type and doesn't have as hard of a time.


Can your dh use his leadership abilities and clear sense of right and wrong, to help make positive changes in the community?
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amother
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Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:45 pm
amother wrote:
my dh finds dealing with rabbis, having to be around people so much since davening with a minyan is expected, hypocricy, gemarah learning... so was wondering how other INTJ guys deal with it? He just often feels very lonely in a frum community, regardless of the community.


dh says he loves the religion , hates the people.

Today one of our friends made a comment to me as a joke, but I think he was serious that dh is a curmudgeon(sp?) dh is constantly complaining about the leadership in our community and Judaism overall and the hypocrisy and nepotism (at least in our community). He admitted to me today how unhappy he is. I cried out to Hashem through out my Mincha. I Just don't know how to help him. I don't know that he will be happy anywhere.
But for a man that complains about the hypocrisy, lack of leadership etc. right now he is out doing two taharas and it is almost midnight here....
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:51 pm
amother wrote:
taupe how do you handle it? My dh actually thinks yidishkeit is emes so he stays frum but its just so hard for him so I was wondering if anyone's husband has this personality type and doesn't have as hard of a time.

His personality type combined with bad experiences with authority regarding Judaism has led him astray. He's delved into a lot of other and decided the logic makes sense to him. I know that deep down he can feel the truth. I've learned not to argue and just love him unconditionally. He's a good man.
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amother
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Post Mon, May 21 2018, 8:55 pm
dh has tried to help the community. His help is often unwanted since he's not viewed as a "macher". My dh doesn't do taharahs but yeah he still does help the community a lot. Think it's in keeping with the personality Wink
taupe- so your dh is no longer frum?
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 9:10 pm
amother wrote:
dh has tried to help the community. His help is often unwanted since he's not viewed as a "macher". My dh doesn't do taharahs but yeah he still does help the community a lot. Think it's in keeping with the personality Wink
taupe- so your dh is no longer frum?

I don't like to label but he's cut out a lot.
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amother
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Post Mon, May 21 2018, 9:28 pm
I guess a three day chag will bring out all of this- sending out hugs. We all have good men and it so hard to see them struggle! I am curious if we , the wives all have similar personalities?? I describe myself as queen of dan lkav zechus, avoid talking negatively as much as I can , hearts and flowers and roses. But this gets me into trouble when reality sets in and things aren't always so rosy and I spiral and get really angry and frustrated. I also feel like I nag too much when dh goes off on his rants about people. I think he gets to dramatic, when he calls people harsh names. but am I oversensitive to it because of my personality
I hate seeing dh so sad..
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momnaturally




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 21 2018, 9:57 pm
I can't comment on this on a personal level because I don't have a spouse or any relative or friend like this.
But it was interesting to read that description in the op.
I would think that this type needs a solid Rov that they really respect and admire.
How do they deal with the mitzvos that need emotion ?
For example how do they have a relationship with Hashem ? Davening,Love,fear,trust,bitachon all of these are mitzvos and ways to connect to Hashem. Do they have that ? Or if they don't do they see what they are lacking and seek to develop it in order to relate to Hashem ?
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amother
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Post Tue, May 22 2018, 6:29 am
op here- my dh definitely has emunah. he feels emotion, he gets really excited about seder night with the kids for example Wink

dh's response:
"we come from a more logical place of love. When we love we are seeing the greatness or the potential for greatness in another person. It's very easy to love G-d who is the ultimate in greatness"

Dh and I then got in to a whole philosophical conversation about what is actually love and how can the same feeling be used to to describe how you feel towards a variety of different people.

yes they need a solid rabbi they respect and my dh will be the first one to admit that he would greatly benefit from that, unfortunately that's hard to find. There's one rabbi who he a relationship with but that rabbi is actually also pretty burnt by "daas torah".

The amother who said a rabbi has to really earn her husband's respect- has any rabbi succeeded in doing that and sustained that respect? would you mind telling me who that rabbi is?
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amother
Azure


 

Post Tue, May 22 2018, 7:22 am
amother wrote:
op here- my dh definitely has emunah. he feels emotion, he gets really excited about seder night with the kids for example Wink

dh's response:
"we come from a more logical place of love. When we love we are seeing the greatness or the potential for greatness in another person. It's very easy to love G-d who is the ultimate in greatness"

Dh and I then got in to a whole philosophical conversation about what is actually love and how can the same feeling be used to to describe how you feel towards a variety of different people.

yes they need a solid rabbi they respect and my dh will be the first one to admit that he would greatly benefit from that, unfortunately that's hard to find. There's one rabbi who he a relationship with but that rabbi is actually also pretty burnt by "daas torah".

The amother who said a rabbi has to really earn her husband's respect- has any rabbi succeeded in doing that and sustained that respect? would you mind telling me who that rabbi is?


If that was me, I'm very sorry to say that mostly these rabbonim are no longer alive.

There is one who was a talmid muvhak of R' Moshe Feinstein, although he is elderly and not in the best health so dh doesn't like to bother him. He respects him because of how he advised when I called this rav for advice.

Dh respects R' Shmuel Kaminetzky because of how he advised regarding a specific complex issue that dh's brother was dealing with.

Dh is actually trying to work with some guys to start a new shul and hire a new rav, so I'm hopeful and davening it should work out.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Tue, May 22 2018, 8:07 am
blush- my dh said that he doesn't appreciate being considered as someone who sees the negative. Really he is someone who sees the potential, how it can be made better and gets frustrated when others don't seem to want to improve things. So others might say- you are always complaining that things don't start on time while he'll say but I see that something can never start before 10:00 so I'm just suggesting it be called for 10:10 so that way it'll be on time and won't waste other people's time. To him the suggestion is so apparent and easy. It's frustrating when the leaders just don't want to listen.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 22 2018, 10:03 am
amother wrote:
My dh has some of the characteristics as well. When it comes to Jusiasm he has ahrd time with daas torah. He feels just because you have smicha does not mean you automatically deserve all the kavod given to you. I think stems from his experiences with "Daas Torah" growing up and how they turned a number of his friends off the derech. As well as other personal experiences.
What have you been experiencing OP?


So I'm not sure I'm understanding this thread.

Neither my husband or I are an INTJ personality type, but we feel the same. Just because someone has smicha does NOT automatically give you "Daas Torah" - whatever that means - and there are plenty of so-called "Rabbanim" who we would never listen to, ever.

I think the answer to that is to find someone that you can respect and feel that they are authentic. There are plenty of people like that so it shouldn't be so hard to find.
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amother
Red


 

Post Tue, May 22 2018, 10:06 am
amother wrote:
If that was me, I'm very sorry to say that mostly these rabbonim are no longer alive.

There is one who was a talmid muvhak of R' Moshe Feinstein, although he is elderly and not in the best health so dh doesn't like to bother him. He respects him because of how he advised when I called this rav for advice.

Dh respects R' Shmuel Kaminetzky because of how he advised regarding a specific complex issue that dh's brother was dealing with.

Dh is actually trying to work with some guys to start a new shul and hire a new rav, so I'm hopeful and davening it should work out.


It's interesting that you say this, because my father is an INTJ, and he only believed in (and would listen to) R' Moshe Feinstein. Since R' Moshe was niftar, he has not gotten anyone else that he respects to that level...
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amother
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Post Tue, May 22 2018, 1:15 pm
momnaturally wrote:
I can't comment on this on a personal level because I don't have a spouse or any relative or friend like this.
But it was interesting to read that description in the op.
I would think that this type needs a solid Rov that they really respect and admire.
How do they deal with the mitzvos that need emotion ?
For example how do they have a relationship with Hashem ? Davening,Love,fear,trust,bitachon all of these are mitzvos and ways to connect to Hashem. Do they have that ? Or if they don't do they see what they are lacking and seek to develop it in order to relate to Hashem ?

Its a struggle. I don't see the emotion in my dh as much with his davening and mitzvoth. But his bitachon is strong and his love of Israel and hope for moshiach is strong.

He did have a rebbi that he respected, but as others have posted- his rav is much older and ill and he never asked deep shailos that had emotion to it. He had a good relationship with him, but never asked life questions to him- we both grew up MO/ Young Israel type. I don't know anyone who ever really asked deep questions to their shul Rav in general. It always just to pasken. Never felt the need or thought to ask for permission or opinions to- decide when to move, or what school is best etc. we made our own decisions.

I think what wore him down to the point where he is now was seeing how our son's yeshiva principal played with his talmidims" minds and caused a lot of heart ache. Learning Torah supersedes all even being a mentsch. Stories of great Rabbeim judging the external and not what is in the heart. I could go on, but you get the idea.

I recently reached out to one of those ask the rabbi online chats and the first thing he told me was, maybe your dh needs to work on himself- umm , hello- you think telling dh that is going to help!!! That was the end of that conversation.....

DH has become a complainer(a doer too) but a complainer and I hate for anyone else to see and think that he is miserable (which he is because of lots of things not just this.) He is a good man and I am really sad for him.
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