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amother
Ginger
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 Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:38 am
I tried to read up on what’s going on at the border with children being separated from their parents.
Can somebody please give me a crash course because I’m not understanding?
Please try not to take any sides just in neutral explanation .
Where are these kids coming from, where are their parents, what is going on?
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southernbubby
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:50 am
There is no simple explanation. For a long time, it was mainly men who came in illegally; some to work and support the families back home and others to pedal drugs which supplied around 90% of the demand for street narcotics. Many of these simply worked as migrant farm hands, elderly care givers, cleaning help, etc which were basically low paying jobs that most Americans don't want and the employers were able to take advantage of the illegal status by paying less than minimum wage.
Then people with kids started coming, some to get a better life for the kids and others to use the kids as props to make them appear to be a family but the kids would be trafficked on arrival to the extreme detriment of the children.
So now the immigration authorities have the tremendous job of looking at thousands who are pouring into the country to decide who is a real family and who is here to harm our society and whose jobs are they taking away? OTOH, if we don't have crop pickers, the crops will rot and the poor of our own country don't seem to be able to migrate with the harvest. But OTOH, our own poor could be channeled into some of these low wage service jobs if we got better at channeling them as well as paid them a decent wage.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 10:26 am
Thank you Southern Bobby.
So why is everyone so angry that we don’t let these children in?
What is the outrage all about?
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amother
Tangerine
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 10:30 am
| amother wrote: | Thank you Southern Bobby.
So why is everyone so angry that we don’t let these children in?
What is the outrage all about? |
people are angry about what happens to the kids after they have managed to get into the country.
I think many people would be okay if the entire family was kept together - go through whatever legal processes there is - and then deported.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 10:37 am
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But didn’t their parents send them here alone? Why would America let them in?
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southernbubby
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 10:39 am
| amother wrote: | | But didn’t their parents send them here alone? Why would America let them in? |
one act of extreme negligence should not lead to another
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amother
Tangerine
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:00 am
| amother wrote: | | But didn’t their parents send them here alone? Why would America let them in? |
They aren't being escorted in with balloons.
Maybe ask the question - how are they getting in.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:06 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | one act of extreme negligence should not lead to another |
But if you don’t have strict policies in place, then everybody will take advantage of us.
Of course the children are a poor sight, and my heart goes out to them, but we have to keep our country intact, otherwise there will be more chaos here.
I need somebody to explain the other side to me
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33055
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:13 am
| amother wrote: | But if you don’t have strict policies in place, then everybody will take advantage of us.
Of course the children are a poor sight, and my heart goes out to them, but we have to keep our country intact, otherwise there will be more chaos here.
I need somebody to explain the other side to me |
The other side is the illegal immigrants want a better life here. There are billions of people who want an American standard of living.
The left is also trying to embarrass Trump to take away from his successes. I noticed the rise in hysteria when talk started about Trump when the Nobel peace prize.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:15 am
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But squishy, they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Why would any sane president allow them to stay ?
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amother
Tangerine
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:17 am
| amother wrote: | | But squishy, they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Why would any sane president allow them to stay ? |
This isn't what the current conversation is about.
You are looking for facts at this point - no?
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tryinghard
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:23 am
There are two points I think need to be added here.
1) A very large percentage of the children coming are actually being used to make a group of people look like a family group - ie, a group of adults being smuggled in will get through much easier if some children (unrelated) are a part of their group.
| Quote: | | White House officials — including President Trump’s adviser Stephen Miller — stated that the number of illegal aliens using children to enter the U.S. at the southern border has increased about 315 percent between October 2017 and February 2018. Through a series of legal loopholes, minors are smuggled through the southern border with illegal aliens posing as family units in order to eventually be released into the country through the “Catch and Release” program. |
DHS Secretary Nielsen said: | Quote: | | The vast majority, vast vast majority of children who are in the care of HHS right now — 10,000 of the 12,000 — were sent here alone by their parents. That’s when they were separated. So somehow we’ve conflated everything. But there’s two separate issues. 10,000 of those currently in custody were sent by their parents with strangers undertake a completely dangerous and deadly travel alone. We now care for them. We have high standards. We give them meals, we give them education, we give them medical care. There’s videos, there’s TVs, | (BTW, way better treatment than so many kids in poverty today).
2.This only happens to those choosing to break the law by entering illegally. Those families who come to legal points of entry and request asylum are not separated, but are kept together until their hearing, at which point they either are permitted to stay, or are deported as a group.
If a parent chooses to enter this country illegally, they are choosing to run the risk of being separated from their children.
which leads to
3. The treatment of the children described in my first point, might just incentivize parents for my second point - best case scenario, they all make it through. Worst case, the kids will at least have a better life than their parents can provide for them.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:24 am
| amother wrote: | This isn't what the current conversation is about.
You are looking for facts at this point - no? |
I’m trying to understand the entire concept from A-Z
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:40 am
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33055
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:45 am
| amother wrote: | | But squishy, they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Why would any sane president allow them to stay ? |
They want to appease big busines who wants cheap labor. They also think they will be future voters who will support them because they the open borders policy.
What they fail to realize is that the illegal immigrants want a better life for themselves and their family. Beyond that many of them are not willing to give up part of their better life to benefit others. Clamping down on future arrivals benefits those who are here because they lose when cheaper labor arrives.
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Miri7
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:47 am
I’m sure I will get bashed, but this is my basic understanding:
People are very upset now about the separation of children from their parents when the parents are detained for crossing the us border illegally. (There has been a lot of talk in other threads about trafficked kids, kids who cross alone, but the hullabaloo right now is about separating kids and their parents or legitimate guardians. That’s a distraction from what people are upset about now).
Adults who cross the border illegally can be detained until they are processed and either given entry legally or deported. People are supposed to enter a border crossing if they want to apply for asylum and get processed there but some people don’t, and enter illegally then apply for asylum.
The question is - what do you do with families who have crossed illegally?
There was a case called the Flores case that said children cannot be held in detention with their parents while the parents are waiting to be processed. So, the Obama administration (IIRC) decided to let parents who cross with kids go free in the US while waiting for their case to be processed.
Jeff Sessions announced a “zero tolerance” policy, meaning that all adults who are found to cross illegally would be held in detention. (Also, domestic abuse and something else would no longer qualify you for seeking asylum. That was another change) So...what happens to the kids?
Kids are being separated from their parents. The press and some senators/congresspeople have gotten access to where the kids are being held. There are accounts of kids being taken from their parents “to get a photo” and the kids aren’t returned to the parents.
So this is what people are upset about. I tried to be as neutral, accurate and straightforward in my account.
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amother
Tangerine
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:53 am
| amother wrote: | | I’m trying to understand the entire concept from A-Z |
Right - but within seconds you have switched to asking about opinions. Its really important to understand what is happening, factually, before you start up with asking for 'what other side thinks".
Do you yet know "what’s going on at the border with children being separated from their parents"
Honestly - there seems to be a lot of conjecture and very few facts to go around.
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WhatFor
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:59 am
OP, if you really want a crash course, here it is:
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/.....rents
Someone disregarded the link on another thread because they don't like vox. The author, Dara Lind, is well respected by experts in the field of immigration.
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Fox
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:01 pm
| amother wrote: | But if you don’t have strict policies in place, then everybody will take advantage of us.
Of course the children are a poor sight, and my heart goes out to them, but we have to keep our country intact, otherwise there will be more chaos here.
I need somebody to explain the other side to me |
The "other side" is ultimately a no-borders society in which people can move around at will. While it might seem great in theory, history has shown us that absence of borders inevitably leads to a society where "might makes right" and the powerful or more numerous can oppress the weaker or minorities.
No one likes the status quo, but there are realities that have to be addressed:
* 10,000 of the 12,000 minors currently detained were apprehended without their parents. We cannot simply put them out on the street, either in the U.S. or in Mexico.
* The people involved in human trafficking are smart and organized. They have lawyers who are constantly looking for loopholes to exploit. The catch-and-release practice applied to family units resulted in a huge surge of adults entering the U.S. with minors whom they claimed to be their children but were not. We do not want to create loopholes out of compassion that end up making things worse in the long run.
* Either catch-and-release or turning over minors to unverified sponsors provides an easy way for pedophile rings and s-x traffickers to gain custody of children.
Balancing these realities with compassion has been a policy issue for decades. Only the hysteria and outrage is new. Unsurprisingly, no one has offered up any solutions to a problem that has now vexed the Clinton, Bush, Obama, and now Trump administrations. Everyone wants the government to "do" something, but each possible solution has significant problems.
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Fox
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Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:33 pm
| WhatFor wrote: | OP, if you really want a crash course, here it is:
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/.....rents
Someone disregarded the link on another thread because they don't like vox. The author, Dara Lind, is well respected by experts in the field of immigration. |
I was that "someone." I would suggest that readers Google Dara Lind's history before considering her "crash course" as reliable. She is an unabashed activist, and her journalism is in the service of that activism. She is most notable for her defense of Nicholas Christakis's main attacker at Yale.
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