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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Please help me argue an important point
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Post Tue, Jun 19 2018, 1:00 pm
heidi wrote:
This.
You could posit that her purpose in life is to give other people chessed opportunities. But it seems so sad.
At my job I often see severely disabled children. Their parents have no life outside work and caring for them. There was just a 12 year old hospitalized for 2 months. With round the clock family members or volunteers watching her. She can't walk, talk, eat. She can't even smile. I'm not saying she should be killed. But seriously, what kind of life is that for her? And her family? G-d forgive me for saying this but wouldn't it have been better if she had never been born?


We can ask this question about any problem a person has. Why did god make me poor? Why did god make me fail a test. What was the point of it. Why are there problems on the world? This is the way hashem likes his world. We don't understand everything.
Wouldn't the world be better with no problems? Every child being smart and having friends in school with no bullies?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 19 2018, 1:54 pm
Disclaimer: these aren't the main arguments, IMO - but they are the main arguments if we leave belief in Hashem (or any fundamental beliefs about right and wrong) out of the picture, and assume a strictly rational cost-benefit analysis.

amother wrote:
People with disabilities or mental illness will always take more from society than they give.

As others said - this is simply not true. Many, many people with disabilities or mental illness give more than they take.

There are two issues here: 1. that people can be disabled in some way, but highly capable in others (eg brilliant entertainers with life-threatening depression), 2. that people can give to society in many, many ways - by inventing something or working at a job, yes, but also by being a loving child or sibling, by being kind, by cheering people up, or simply by being themselves and being loved for it...

That's when it comes to people today. There's also the question of what will happen tomorrow. Can we really say that because someone has no way to contribute to society today, they won't have any way to contribute 50 years from now? We have no idea what technologies or medicines or new discoveries will be available then.

But let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that we can clearly define "give to society" and "take from society," and that we can know for sure that a particular person will take more than they give until the day they die.
Quote:
Therefore

They should ideally be terminated on diagnosis, or as soon as it becomes apparent that they will be more draining than contributing

This is making a false parallel between the individual and the collective. Even if keeping a certain individual alive didn't bring any visible benefit to society, keeping severely disabled people as a collective alive does.

What first comes to mind for me is keeping talented, contributing people in the population. Would you want to live in a country where the government could kill your child if they became ill??? I certainly wouldn't.

Sure, some people would stay - but a huge percent of people with the resources to leave, would leave. The country as a whole would lose out big-time. For the sake of not paying for a very small percent of the population that's severely handicapped, it would give up significant support and resources.

There are other reasons - international law, respecting the feelings of religious minorities (respecting feelings = financial benefits in the form of keeping contributing citizens, "soft power," and avoiding violent conflict), probably a lot more I'm not thinking of yet - but IMO this reason is enough already.

Quote:
Failing this, at least no resources whatsoever should be wasted on them, and they should be left to flounder on the edge of society until they die a natural death.

People spent a total of $220 million in the USA alone to see The Last Jedi. Are we really going to say that people can spend money on watching a movie, if that makes them feel good, but not on supporting a human being, if they'd rather do that instead?

Plus, leaving people "on the edge of society" is bad for the economy. If they have the ability to commit violence - some will do that, citizens will suffer, and the government will end up losing resources to crime. Even if they don't - the sight of people suffering and dying in the streets will be horrible for national morale and national reputation.
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amother
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Post Tue, Jun 19 2018, 2:06 pm
And yet - there's another side to this question. Which people are often afraid to voice.

Every person deserves respect and care and to be kept alive.

Yet, how much of society's resources should be devoted to maximizing the potential of the severely disabled?

For example, if $100,000 per year (or something close) is being devoted to one child, so that the child can communicate (even if via a computer), possibly learn to use the toilet etc, but this is on the backs of the taxpayers (as opposed to voluntary donations) - is this fair?

Of course if you're the parent you probably feel one way, while many might feel differently.

And even if we're talking about donations, should tzedakah funds be used for this more so than for helping a child who fell prey to drugs, to preventing a child from going OTD, to helping a dysfunctional family, to fund infertility treatments, etc etc. There are so many needs in klal yisroel (or, for that matter, in general society). Yet one Rov said, it's amazing how few shaylos he gets about how and where to give one's tzedakah.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 19 2018, 2:14 pm
amother wrote:
And yet - there's another side to this question. Which people are often afraid to voice.

Every person deserves respect and care and to be kept alive.

Yet, how much of society's resources should be devoted to maximizing the potential of the severely disabled?

For example, if $100,000 per year (or something close) is being devoted to one child, so that the child can communicate (even if via a computer), possibly learn to use the toilet etc, but this is on the backs of the taxpayers (as opposed to voluntary donations) - is this fair?

Of course if you're the parent you probably feel one way, while many might feel differently.

And even if we're talking about donations, should tzedakah funds be used for this more so than for helping a child who fell prey to drugs, to preventing a child from going OTD, to helping a dysfunctional family, to fund infertility treatments, etc etc. There are so many needs in klal yisroel (or, for that matter, in general society). Yet one Rov said, it's amazing how few shaylos he gets about how and where to give one's tzedakah.

Are we really living in a world where severely handicapped children with no known hope of recovery are swimming in resources, while issues like infertility and OTD are ignored? As far as I know, it's pretty much the opposite. Even people with significant odds of recovery are, unfortunately, often not given the resources they need to succeed.
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creditcards




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 19 2018, 2:32 pm
amother wrote:
And yet - there's another side to this question. Which people are often afraid to voice.

Every person deserves respect and care and to be kept alive.

Yet, how much of society's resources should be devoted to maximizing the potential of the severely disabled?

For example, if $100,000 per year (or something close) is being devoted to one child, so that the child can communicate (even if via a computer), possibly learn to use the toilet etc, but this is on the backs of the taxpayers (as opposed to voluntary donations) - is this fair?

Of course if you're the parent you probably feel one way, while many might feel differently.

And even if we're talking about donations, should tzedakah funds be used for this more so than for helping a child who fell prey to drugs, to preventing a child from going OTD, to helping a dysfunctional family, to fund infertility treatments, etc etc. There are so many needs in klal yisroel (or, for that matter, in general society). Yet one Rov said, it's amazing how few shaylos he gets about how and where to give one's tzedakah.


That's a totally valid question and a decision each person gets to make. You can decide how much to help others and to which tzedakah to give. But you can't decide to harm/kill someone. Basic human decency.
The government takes care if it's people the way it sees fit. (I would rather my tax money go to helping a disbled child than have milions of funds being sent to Muslim countries to support terror. Thank God Trump came and stopped that...)
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amother
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Post Tue, Jun 19 2018, 4:26 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Are we really living in a world where severely handicapped children with no known hope of recovery are swimming in resources, while issues like infertility and OTD are ignored? As far as I know, it's pretty much the opposite. Even people with significant odds of recovery are, unfortunately, often not given the resources they need to succeed.


This may happen in some families with special needs kids. It's a real balance making sure you provide enough care and attention to all your kids and not ignore the "minor" issues your non special needs kids may be having. That's why I don't judge when I hear parents have given up for fostering or adoption a special needs child. Some parents know their limits. (and I don't think we should all stop having children in case we have a SN child that is too much for us to handle)

And definitely there are people who make the choice to have less children due to a highly demanding special needs child.

But on a society level, I do think we can afford today to look after such people. In harsher, poorer times, maybe this was a real question. (If there is not enough food which child do you give the last piece of bread to?)

I don't know the answer, but obviously Hashem has created every single creature and every single person for a reason, even my nephew who is a strapping teenage but cannot talk or think or go to the toilet. He can (finally!) walk and definitely gets pleasure from life.
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ssspectacular




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 27 2018, 1:00 pm
amother wrote:
Not covering it up, I know it's there.
The problem is I can't deal with it so then I can't change my perspective so then I will hate hate hate autistic kids and disabled people forever.

I hate that I do this, but I can't not.


I think you are hurting yourself the most with all that hate. Find a great therapist and work thru your issues. You deserve to live happily.
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