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Lakewood peer pressure
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:11 pm
debsey wrote:


That shy, socially awkward 9th grader who really wants a Kate Spade schoolbag, or those Ugg boots....or that keratin straightening and haircut from an upscale salon - or that kid in a class where every boy has a Hugo Boss or Ted Baker tie, and a Ferragamo belt - or takes karate or tennis or ice hockey.......these things add up, and it's not always easy to say no. Sometimes, those social pressures can be really painful for kids, especially kids who are vulnerable. It leaves parents in a very difficult position.

I'm all for saying no and not letting the street raise my kids, but you have to also know the individual kid and what he/she needs. Sometimes, these pressures can really stress a family, from both within and without.


And this is another point that wasn't bought up. Some schools have more pressure for name brands than others. And probably different neighborhoods and social circles have different pressures too.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:19 pm
It’s so funny how close minded some posters are.

Like I mention my DH is in kollel and suddenly it’s assur for me to have cleaning help or to get new clothes. Or for anyone in Lakewood. Because Lakewood is a kollel town, right?

And everyone is so simple and can live on only bread and water, right?

Wrong!!

There are plenty of nice people of all kinds that live here. Many young couples from Brooklyn, Monsey and way beyond live here after they get married, go to BMG for a year or two and then settle down here. Some couples move here with a few kids because of the price of living is much cheaper. They come from places with higher standards a lot of the time and automatically the standards go up for the whole town.

Yes we still have simple yeshivish kollel families and even non kollel families.

But all in all this town (or shall I say city?) is a very big mix and casually throwing generalizations about a lot of random people are never a good idea.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:28 pm
SuperWify wrote:
It’s so funny how close minded some posters are.

Like I mention my DH is in kollel and suddenly it’s assur for me to have cleaning help or to get new clothes. Or for anyone in Lakewood. Because Lakewood is a kollel town, right?

And everyone is so simple and can live on only bread and water, right?

Wrong!!

There are plenty of nice people of all kinds that live here. Many young couples from Brooklyn, Monsey and way beyond live here after they get married, go to BMG for a year or two and then settle down here. Some couples move here with a few kids because of the price of living is much cheaper. They come from places with higher standards a lot of the time and automatically the standards go up for the whole town.

Yes we still have simple yeshivish kollel families and even non kollel families.

But all in all this town (or shall I say city?) is a very big mix and casually throwing generalizations about a lot of random people are never a good idea.


It’s so silly. My husband spent 4 years in BMG , he is now making $200k plus. But if you spend money on your clothing and don’t look like the typical kollel wife shmatte then you are bashed because - hey- you live in Lakewood.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:38 pm
I think the problem is when you see an ad for something that says "discount for kollel families", or when our daughters learn in school about "the beauty of sacrificing for a kollel lifestyle" and then they see their friends getting married and they don't seem to be sacrificing anything...
I think people have come to expect kollel to come with a certain level of deprivation and the honor that goes with it. But nowadays it just doesn't seem that way anymore. And that's okay, kollel wives aren't obligated to live a deprived life. But the teachers taught us all that kollel wives are honor worthy, so...
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:39 pm
Catching up on this thread...

FTR I'm anonymous because I included personal details when giving my opinions. I do feel I have a right to state my opinions. I was a bit bemused by the harshness of some of the responses here; maybe some people got defensive? IDK.

I don't think it's bashing to decry materialism. People are wonderful, and I have no problem with them. It's the sad elevation of gashmiyus standards that just gets to me and makes me concerned for the generation, and this has absolutely nothing to do with looking like a "kollel wife shmatte".

I really feel that something's gotta give. The whole picture is impossible from so many different directions. And "live and let live" simply doesn't work in frum society.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:42 pm
amother wrote:
I think the problem is when you see an ad for something that says "discount for kollel families", or when our daughters learn in school about "the beauty of sacrificing for a kollel lifestyle" and then they see they're friends getting married and they don't seem to be sacrificing anything...
I think people have come to expect kollel to come with a certain level of deprivation and the honor that goes with it. But nowadays it just doesn't seem that way anymore. And that's okay, kollel wives aren't obligated to live a deprived life. But the teachers taught us all that kollel wives are honor worthy, so...


Most kollel wives work very hard to support their families so their husbands can learn. They work full time, run busy households and encourage their dhs to learn three sedation. Why is not a sacrifice?

And once we’re in the topic and I’m getting really upset and 😠-

Why can’t she pamper herself once in a while so she can continue doing what she doing? Why do you care if she dresses her kids in pretty clothes that make her happy? Why can’t she have a bit of cleaning help on Friday afternoon when she comes home from work three hours before Shabbos and needs to finish cooking? Why do you care of her parents or in laws are so glad to support Torah that they give them ample $$$ each month that can even be enough for extras?
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:09 pm
SuperWify wrote:
Most kollel wives work very hard to support their families so their husbands can learn. They work full time, run busy households and encourage their dhs to learn three sedation. Why is not a sacrifice?

And once we’re in the topic and I’m getting really upset and 😠-

Why can’t she pamper herself once in a while so she can continue doing what she doing? Why do you care if she dresses her kids in pretty clothes that make her happy? Why can’t she have a bit of cleaning help on Friday afternoon when she comes home from work three hours before Shabbos and needs to finish cooking? Why do you care of her parents or in laws are so glad to support Torah that they give them ample $$$ each month that can even be enough for extras?

Superwify, I'm totally with you on all of that. I'm just saying why, at first glance, some novices may scratch their heads, that's all.
I totally respect what kollel wives do, they deserve every bit of pampering, and then some.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:14 pm
DGD had a choice of two Lakewood high schools. Let us just say that one would likely be more intellectually or academically demanding, which would be good for her.

She told DD, "But Ma, I can only go there if you're willing to buy me the 'stuff' I will need so I don't look nebby" (or words to that effect) - whether school supplies, hair accessories, shoes, Shabbos clothing - because just because you have a uniform doesn't mean you avoid peer pressure!

They wisely decided to go with the other school, and suffice with supplementing her intellectual stimulation at home if need be.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:17 pm
amother wrote:
DGD had a choice of two Lakewood high schools. Let us just say that one would likely be more intellectually or academically demanding, which would be good for her.

She told DD, "But Ma, I can only go there if you're willing to buy me the 'stuff' I will need so I don't look nebby" (or words to that effect) - whether school supplies, hair accessories, shoes, Shabbos clothing - because just because you have a uniform doesn't mean you avoid peer pressure!

They wisely decided to go with the other school, and suffice with supplementing her intellectual stimulation at home if need be.

That can be the case in any frum city where there is a choice of more than one school. Has nothing to do with Lakewood per se.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:21 pm
Quote:
That can be the case in any frum city where there is a choice of more than one school.
Most cities have a higher academic and more fancy clientele and a lower academic and less fancy people?

(BTW Lakewood has many more high schools, these were the two that appealed to them most. I can't speak for either the level, fanciness, "yeshivness", or other factors at the other schools.)

My point being, however, that by choosing your schools and neighborhoods, you choose your peer pressures. Tov l'tzaddik tov l'schaino.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:30 pm
Bh none of my kids fell into the peer pressure trap yet. I am so greatful for that! My preteen did ask for sweatbands ( as they are verrry in) because she likes that style. But I would’ve gotten her new accessories in any case so....
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:42 pm
amother wrote:
So I guess the question is where are these high school kids getting it? High school is a time of great social anxiety and need to confirm for a lot of kids, but I'm not in circles where girls must have the right bag. I don't think there is a right bag. And high school boys are almost totally unaware of brand names. Why do you think this happens?

Something tells me you don't have HS age boys. (Or at least no in-town ones.) My sons are well aware of Ferragamo, etc. even though they don't own any designer clothes, nor do they wish to own any.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 5:47 pm
amother wrote:
Let me put it this way.

DH called me up a few weeks ago after spending the day in Lakewood, telling me that Lakewood women are so well-dressed and attractive, and that he was totally turned on.

He got the cold shoulder for a good long while until he apologized for acting like a jerk.

But seriously Lakewooders: Can't you dress down a bit instead of being on the runway every time you step out of the house?

As I heard from a secular boy once: Frum girls are hot!

That's not how it's supposed to be.

Just because we frum women have the skills to know how to dress, doesn't mean we should use them to entice men we aren't married to -- whether intentionally or not.

Wisdom is using your beauty skill to look sweet, presentable, and MODEST. Not drop-dead-gorgeous-would-ya-look-me!

I feel badly for you. Your husband is the one with a problem.
He got turned on from some woman in the street.
Don't put the onus on Lakewood.
Again YOUR husband got turned on from some woman on the street.
He always had this problem and will have this problem unless he is made aware that he is acting like a teenage baby leering at girls.
He had a preconception that Lakewood means shlumpy women, and as a result
STUPIDLY made that comment to you.
HE IS INCONSIDERATE and needs to learn kindness and gentleman behavior
and respecting his wife who cares for him, cleans and cooks and raises children for him....
The secular boy's comment about frum girls could very well be irrelevant.
Just ask Latino boys in Brooklyn. Some of our workers have been attracted to very chasidish looking girls in their neighborhoods or workplaces.
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creditcards




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 5:53 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't understand why one be offended from DH's comment? Isn't that how men are naturally. That's why you would see a lot of them walking with their eyes looking down at the floor. (In the chasidish places)
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 6:04 pm
SuperWify wrote:
Most kollel wives work very hard to support their families so their husbands can learn. They work full time, run busy households and encourage their dhs to learn three sedation. Why is not a sacrifice?

And once we’re in the topic and I’m getting really upset and 😠-

Why can’t she pamper herself once in a while so she can continue doing what she doing? Why do you care if she dresses her kids in pretty clothes that make her happy? Why can’t she have a bit of cleaning help on Friday afternoon when she comes home from work three hours before Shabbos and needs to finish cooking? Why do you care of her parents or in laws are so glad to support Torah that they give them ample $$$ each month that can even be enough for extras?


Im going to put my 2 cents here. You're right in theory. Everyone is allowed to do as they please and theres no reason for judgement.

But the truth is, there is a knee jerk reaction among many toward the example you described. And as someone who has experienced both sides, I'll give you a bit of insight into why that emotional reaction happens.

I supported my husband for 5 years in kolel. I worked like a dog, had no support from either side, because neither side can afford much as it is. We made it work because we wanted it so bad. My husband got NO KOLEL CHECK at all. My salary was not great. We made do by not spending on any luxuries, and by severely limiting necessities. Meat was rarely bought, chicken only sometimes, supper was often a sandwich or eggs. All baby items were bought at garage sales and gemachs. No paper goods. Reused sandwich bags. Washed and set my own shaitel even though I had no idea what I was doing and it looked awful. Waxed at home even though it got all over because I had no idea what I was doing. Bought makeup at the dollar tree. Etc. We made it work by really living "the kollel life".

NOW. here is where you pay attention Very Happy my husband now works. We have joined the ranks of the middle class, who dont get kolel breaks, and work themselves like crazy just to afford the basics. Expenses are still insane, and like many of my working-family friends, we still cut back on many things in order to afford life. Rarely buy clothes. Second hand for the kids, even though if course we would love them to be dressed up all cute and stylish. Used cars that break down often. Still doing our own shaitels most of the time, still looking not as glamorous as we could because of it. We clean our houses ourselves. No cleaning lady. Not because we enjoy cleaning, or because we somehow have the time. But because this is what we need to do to afford our basic expenses. This is what needs to be done.

And then....these beautiful working families, who work so so hard and cut back on so so much to send their kids to proper schools and make their homes a mikdash me'at with happiness and no stress....these families glance to the left and see that kolel wife you just described, with her adorable kids dressed to the nines, and the leased car and the gorgeous shaitel, and on the whatsapp chat she's asking for help because her cleaning lady just quit.....and yes, even though you are correct that she can do what she wants and live how she likes...its hard when you watch someone live it up like that while also proudly wearing the badge of "kolel wife". Yes we should be happy for her that she has rich parents who are thrilled to support her kollel lifestyle. And technically we are. Ashreihem. But its still hard to watch it. Traditionally, living a kollel life has meant sacrificing gashmiyus for the pleasure of the ruchniyus, and working yourself ragged while some young kollel wife gets her nails done and clothes her kids in the latest boutique styles stings.
Should it? Probably not.
But im just explaining to you the why of this human behavior.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 6:37 pm
Little neshamala, my life seems very similar to yours. Yet I do know kollel families who have very generous support and they live very nicely. But is that a crime? Is there a rule that states that if you're in kollel you have to be poor?

Let's face it, life is not fair. Chany is gorgeous with blue eyes and blonde hair, Mindy is not. Yocheved aced school with barely studying, Rochel works hard for her 80's. And Sarah comes from a wealthy family and married a kollel boy, while Shifra comes from a poor family and eats oatmeal for supper to make it work.

I remember reading a story in the book "The Heavenly City" by Menachem Gerlitz about Tuvya the tailor who felt guilty that he was accepting a generous stipend from chit l'aretz while his fellow kollel men were living on bread and water (if that) and stuffed their windows with newspaper to keep out the wind. He asked R Shmuel Salant if he should give it up, and he was told no, if Hashem arranged that he should have money, this is what was meant for him.

For you, you get the extra schar of lfum tzara agra. Others will get their schar in other ways.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 6:41 pm
I think it's also hard for people to see kollel people being supported and therefore legitimately qualifying for government programs... or if the school automatically gives a kollel discount etc... while you are running yourself ragged and their kids are dressed better then yours and upping the standards of the community it's a little disconcerting... Again I am not talking about anything illegal.

Of course everyone should keep their eyes on their own pocket book etc. etc. just explaining why it can be hard for people.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 6:52 pm
I went today to gourmet glatt, Dr shaniks office and bagel nosh. I saw plenty of snoods and sneakers. I also saw ladies dressed up in dresses with long sheitals and tons of make-up but I saw plenty of slinky skirts and tops too. There is such a mix in Lakewood. Maybe I'm not going to the fancy places like Ladida (expensive clothes store $200 for sweater for 2 ur old ) or Ottimo ( expensive milchig resteraunt) or Esteria (expensive fleshig resteraunt). Maybe if I went to expensive fancy places I'd see fancy people
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 6:58 pm
little neshamala wrote:
Im going to put my 2 cents here. You're right in theory. Everyone is allowed to do as they please and theres no reason for judgement.

But the truth is, there is a knee jerk reaction among many toward the example you described. And as someone who has experienced both sides, I'll give you a bit of insight into why that emotional reaction happens.

I supported my husband for 5 years in kolel. I worked like a dog, had no support from either side, because neither side can afford much as it is. We made it work because we wanted it so bad. My husband got NO KOLEL CHECK at all. My salary was not great. We made do by not spending on any luxuries, and by severely limiting necessities. Meat was rarely bought, chicken only sometimes, supper was often a sandwich or eggs. All baby items were bought at garage sales and gemachs. No paper goods. Reused sandwich bags. Washed and set my own shaitel even though I had no idea what I was doing and it looked awful. Waxed at home even though it got all over because I had no idea what I was doing. Bought makeup at the dollar tree. Etc. We made it work by really living "the kollel life".

NOW. here is where you pay attention Very Happy my husband now works. We have joined the ranks of the middle class, who dont get kolel breaks, and work themselves like crazy just to afford the basics. Expenses are still insane, and like many of my working-family friends, we still cut back on many things in order to afford life. Rarely buy clothes. Second hand for the kids, even though if course we would love them to be dressed up all cute and stylish. Used cars that break down often. Still doing our own shaitels most of the time, still looking not as glamorous as we could because of it. We clean our houses ourselves. No cleaning lady. Not because we enjoy cleaning, or because we somehow have the time. But because this is what we need to do to afford our basic expenses. This is what needs to be done.

And then....these beautiful working families, who work so so hard and cut back on so so much to send their kids to proper schools and make their homes a mikdash me'at with happiness and no stress....these families glance to the left and see that kolel wife you just described, with her adorable kids dressed to the nines, and the leased car and the gorgeous shaitel, and on the whatsapp chat she's asking for help because her cleaning lady just quit.....and yes, even though you are correct that she can do what she wants and live how she likes...its hard when you watch someone live it up like that while also proudly wearing the badge of "kolel wife". Yes we should be happy for her that she has rich parents who are thrilled to support her kollel lifestyle. And technically we are. Ashreihem. But its still hard to watch it. Traditionally, living a kollel life has meant sacrificing gashmiyus for the pleasure of the ruchniyus, and working yourself ragged while some young kollel wife gets her nails done and clothes her kids in the latest boutique styles stings.
Should it? Probably not.
But im just explaining to you the why of this human behavior.


I can relate a little to your experience. I once lived in a small OOT (not where I live now) community where many of the families in my children's school were klei kodesh and paid minimal tuition. My husband was attending school and training in his profession so he didn't earn much and I worked full-time to support our family. We couldn't afford cleaning help, a nice car, fancy clothing or any sheitel, because so much of my income went to pay daycare and full tuition. Most of the time I took great pride in being able to pay full tuition. But it was tough when many of these klei kodesh treated me as if I was a subpar mother because I worked outside the home to support my family. Sometimes I felt like pointing out that they should show a bit more respect to the person who subsidized their children's tuition.
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oakandfig19




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 17 2018, 7:07 pm
Um, yeah. All I'm gonna say is, when I went to Lakewood for Shabbos as a newlywed (which was recently), I was asked what my husband got me in the yichud room and where I got my bedding from. Needless to say I cried later, because this is not why I became frum- to talk about my posessions with strangers. Obviously not all of Lakewood is like this, and even so it doesn't make them bad people. It's just not how I choose to live my life.
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