Lakewood peer pressure

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Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 8:02 am

amother wrote:

Lol. I never said anything about large homes. I said fancy.

How can you tell that theyre fancy from google maps? And you're wrong. I've been in many "fancy" homes where the furniture is from Wal-Mart. Folding table and folding chairs in the dining room.

amother

Bronze

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 8:18 am

This thread is so judgemental and closed minded it’s unbelievable. (But oops I forgot- yeshivish ppl are the only close minded ppl right?)
I have loads of family in Lakewood. My siblings and I all have growing families (5-6 kids) and live in small houses. My parents have a big fancy house because they sold their house in Brooklyn and built here for a franction of the price. I’ll move on to cousins. Every one of them either lives in a small house or rents a town house except one cousin who started a very successful business a few years ago- and has a very nice home now.
Should I get started on my neighbors and friends? It’s all the same. Those with successful business or come from wealth live in nicer homes, and everyone else not so much.

Ppl- lakewood is huge! It’s a big mix of ppl some very successful, some not. Some come from wealthier families, some not. Some are barely putting food on the table. It’s a city with many many different types of people with many different values. Let’s stop brushing everyone with one broad stroke! If lakewood is giving you a certain picture as an outsider, maybe think a little further than your immediate impression of whoever you came in touch with and broaden your mind a bit.

Sorry if this post came across too strong.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 8:38 am

amother wrote:

New York area, MO. With-it, frum boys in my neighborhood don't talk brands - not even sneakers.

I'm wondering how this became a kollel bashing thread.

Those of us who are on the outside see a more formal and "curated" style of dress the further you move to the right. While people should dress in a way that pleases them, it looks like a good amount of time, money and energy goes into appearances.

The question is, does my outside reflect my values? Am I projecting refined humility or do I look like shopping is my life?

There's appropriately dressed and there's overdressed. You won't find the rules in the Mishna Brura. You have to have common sense.

I imagine that the right-wing world will continue to dress more formally than those on the left. Some of that comes from being out of the mainstream (office casual, anyone?). The suit and fedora that looked business-like in the 1960s, when kollel really took off, is now worn only by yeshiva guys and gangsters. Women and children, who had no uniform other than looking dignified, are out in the cold, but equally out of step with the mainstream. (Which, I imagine, is a point of pride.)

In any case, your clothes do tell the world who you are. If the image you wish to project is that of a fashionista, go ahead. Enjoy. But don't be surprised when people take you at your word.

I completely agree with this post (except I do know some mo boys into brands...) it is the more right wing dressing up and it seems it has become the focus. Like, why cant I wear a denim skirt? If the skirt is not tight and it is below the knee why care if its denim?? But, it has become "wrong" to wear denim but even some right wingers who wont wear denim may wear a fancy black skirt that may not cover knees when sitting are still considered more yeshivish"" than someone wearing denim skirt.

The emphasis is on clothes and why judge ppl based on what they wear?? This is not a torah hashkafa. I thought ppl in kollel would be focused more on internal values bec they are sacrificing for their dhs to learn. This doesnt mean dress shlumpy but theres a more moderate route"" of dressing such that dressing doesnt become the main focus even if you spent only a little money bec u got it on sale.

This is not a bash against kollel and this is not just lakewood and yes, some women do sacrifice (while others may be working part time with generous support which hashem decided for them) for their dhs learning, but I do expect those women to be less focused on externals, otherwise, I see a big contradiction. This doesnt mean a kollel wife shoukdnt pamper herself with takeout cleaning help etc bec cleaning help and takeout etc.. has to do with coping in this world while being too involved with clothes leads to beinh too focused on externals.

creditcards

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 8:44 am

amother wrote:

Lol. I never said anything about large homes. I said fancy.

Do you know that when an agent puts up a house for sale they make it look fancy that it should sell well?
The pictures you see are not always the real thing. Come take a look at Lakewood yourself.

creditcards

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 8:53 am

amother wrote:

To say it's not Torahdig to focus on externals is wrong. The Torah is telling us how to dress and be tzniusdig. That means focusing in externals. There are people who view denim as not tznius. You don't need to understand their views. I find a lot of rw feel the need to dress better because most of sporty type of clothing is considered not tznius in their community so they end up dressing better to look good. Many clothing other people would wear is not acceptable to them because of tznius issues. This is Torahdig, you don't need to understand it.

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 9:00 am

amother wrote:

Something tells me you don't have HS age boys. (Or at least no in-town ones.) My sons are well aware of Ferragamo, etc. even though they don't own any designer clothes, nor do they wish to own any.

My friend told me that the day after a boy's Bar Mitzvah, the boys snatch his hat off his head in order to check if it's a Borsalino.

I wouldn't know - no boys yet. This is what I heard.

Plenty of peer pressure among the boys. This is just one example.

elisheva25

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 9:11 am

amother wrote:

I like this post. It summarizes the issue well.Add to this the lack of outlets or interests and by default a lot of focus goes into externals. It’s not Kollel bashing at all . It goes all ways, woman who will feel the pressure to dress up and are into labels and Hs boys that are into fashion and brands. It is what it is . Ofcourse this doesn’t mean everyone in Lakewood. But those from the outside see this.

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 9:18 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Ottimo is expensive ??..

Bagel Nosh, pancakes and coffee.. Tastes yucky .. 6$
Ottimo lunch menu.. Potato skins w guacamole absolutely divine... 7$

naturalmom5, I have never been inside Ottimo. Yes, it would be considered expensive in our family.

We don't go to Bagel Nosh either, because my girls happen to not be into bagels. If we eat out, which is rare, it's more like JII (pizza shop) for us...a once-in-a-while treat, like Chanukah vacation or something like that.

Just to let you know - you have alot to say about people in Lakewood and the high standards here. Others might consider your expenditures extravagant, though. ($7 for potatoes and guacamole? You can pop potatoes into your oven and make guacamole yourself, for under $3....)

I find it ironic that people will point fingers at other people's expenditures while justifying their own.

(and yes, I have my own expenditures that people would like consider silly and extravagant, I'm sure....)

SuperWify

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

I truly have nothing against you, and you sound like a very sweet and caring person. I want to give you a picture of how I was taught in Lakewood a lot more years ago than I want to think about... Kollel was shoved down our throats. I know not all had the same experience but we had a terrible teacher who was a respected member of the community who taught us a ton of garbage. (She was eventually let go.) I’m writing that because I may come across as biased. Yes she left some of us with a very bad taste in our mouths. However even the less crazy teachers pushed kolllel strongly, or rather assumed it was a given, leaving no opening for the possibility of marrying someone who actually works. They also let us know how we should basically be poverty stricken rather than have our husbands work. Not a very desirable picture. Then there were our friends from Brooklyn learning the exact opposite - marry a kollel guy and you don’t have to sacrifice a thing. Mommy and Daddy will support your luxurious lifestyle. This whole experience really turned me off from the whole kollel thing. And when I see kollel couples living this way, yea I do feel that it’s not fair that we were taught to live in poverty while they’re obviously living it up. Anyway. Rant over. I didn’t marry a kollel guy. We do pretty ok. As I wrote before, for all I know I’m one of the people op is referring to. And the truth is I really don’t even think this way about kollel couples. I think this just opened up an old can of worms. Funny how we think we’ve moved past things and it turns out they’re still there unresolved deep down. But again, I truly don’t resent you at all. My post was supposed to be more of an explanation than anything, but seems to have turn into a therapy session for me. So thanks for bearing with me. Smile

(Oh and to all who will now defend and deny the way I was taught - this IS in actuality the way I was taught and MANY will agree. So perhaps you had a different experience or are not being honest with yourself.)

I have plenty of friends that survive on the bare minimum while in kollel. I have plenty of friends that get lots of support and live the high life. I have friends (like myself) that are doing fine —most of the time , there are times when we have extra expenses and money is suddenly very tight— and can manage a few extras here and there. It that fair? No but like everything in life, life isn’t fair!

I really don’t understand the bone your picking with me. Your teachers taught you to live on bread and water and stay in kollel and you married a working boy. Ok so what? What bothers you? Are you upset because your parents don’t send you a check every month? Be happy you have a husband that’s making money and has a skill. I’m doing the kollel life (no matter what you say, because I get a manicure three times a year doesn’t qualify me I AM a kollel wife!) because I know my husband wants to learn and it’s good for him. Personally, I’d be a lot happier if the financial burden was off my head and he learned a trade. I’d be a lot happier to live without everyone’s stupid and jealous comments — here and IRL—about how lucky I am to have a FIL that has a “PHD” (stands for Papa Has Dough and hurts every time I hear it.)

Trust me, there are a lot of things I wish I can get but I don’t because we can’t afford it. Like a good therapist (who will teach me not to be so sensitive to your comments) which I had to drop because it was $100 a session. A house (I live in a tiny basement rental and I actually just moved from a stunning new three bedroom apartment to a much older two bedroom apartment to save $$$) a cleaning lady, a new pair of heels (which had not been updated since my kallah days). I can go on, but it’s not the point.

My point is, people are jealous of my fancy kallah jewelry, my trips overseas, the new wig I just got (all sponsored by my in laws) my gym membership (my mom pays). What they don’t realize is that our actual monthly support isn’t much and that I don’t make a lot either and on a daily basis we are a bit tight. And trust me, a fancy diamond ring doesn’t pay for your dinner.

When my mother in law treats me for a manicure — or even a wig — or buys my son new clothing am I prohibited from using them because we are in kollel?

mommyla

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 10:11 am

I missed the last several pages and don't have the patience (or the stomach

) to read through it all now, but I'm curious about how "seeing well-dressed women" translates to "a community focused on externals and obsessed with shopping."

Some days I am more casual than others (today I'm in a snood, T-shirt, and long skirt, yesterday a different T-shirt and a short denim skirt with a shaitel, a different day in a casual dress...) My family looks nice and put together but I am certainly not focused on clothing (au contraire, I hate shopping and am very happy when I get it done at the beginning of the season).

Sure, there are people who you can tell are obsessed with shopping (those whose clothes, accessories, shoes etc. for every member of the family are very up-to-the-minute all the time or who can't stop talking about shopping), but I certainly wouldn't say it's a Lakewood-wide scourge. And even if it was... so what? Don't live here (or find the right neighborhood and schools) if you can't handle it. There are plenty of ways to live in Lakewood without falling prey to overdone materialism.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 10:12 am

I apologize if I made an insensitive comment. I was really just trying to explain why people are turned off when they see these things. Especially those of us who were taught this way. As you seemed to be questioning. NOT directed to you in any way.

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 10:34 am

I've lived in a few places before settling in Lakewood. I agree there is definitely an emphasis on dressing well and looking good. I got to know the community, and I'll explain some "types"

1) Needs newest best, most expensive things. There are a lot of people bh that can afford to buy whatever they want. They shop in expensive stores, always have the most current sheitel, live in huge beautiful homes, always go out to eat...There may be pressure within their friends or not. This is the type of person people notice the most and can generalize Lakewood as.

2) Similar to #1, but can't afford it. I know countless people who are affected by the pressure and are deeply in debt trying to keep up with the lifestyle.

3) People who can afford, but choose to save. They shop for new things in stores like h&m and zara, and are very excited to buy things on sale. They will buy a new wig when needed. They may have nice homes, but are waiting to furnish.

4) People who can only afford to buy basics, but can afford a simpler lifestyle

5) Serendipity is their best friend. For those who aren't familiar, serendipity is a second hand store supplied by the Lakewood community. You can find beautiful designer clothing, and even sometimes matching outfits for kids. These people gladly accept hand me downs in perfect condition. Even though they can't afford much in life, they are so put together, you wouldn't know.

6) People who cant afford much and get everything from handout and gemachim. They don't really care so much as long as their kids have what to wear and are happy. They gladly take any second hand furniture. They are probably living off of food stamps, wic and hud. Many of them have husbands in yeshiva.

There are many more types of people, but just giving you an idea. Some neighborhoods are more "one type", and some are diverse. When visiting Lakewood, it is hard to really get an idea of what the place is about because it is so large.

I find the younger crowd may try to keep up more and its not so hard to. They all live in apartments and have newer sheitels, furniture... either way because they are newly married. When they have their first one or two children it only costs a couple extra thousand to keep up with the clothing (its a lot, but not in the scheme of things). Once they have real expenses, like tuition and buying homes, those who need to may cut back. This is where you will see people struggling to keep up, those who are savers and spenders etc.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 10:37 am

Superwify- sounds like we are in very similar situations. (Down to the not getting new heels since my wedding lol). We are always judged and misunderstood. It hurts.

So to all those out there. Please respect that everyone has different circumstances and that you have no clue what goes on in other people’s lives. Stick to your own values and don’t judge!

amother

Honeydew

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:17 pm

I can confirm that most of the MO boys I knew growing up (late 20s now) did not care about name brands for clothing.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:19 pm

amother wrote:

I can confirm that most of the MO boys I knew growing up (late 20s now) did not care about name brands for clothing.

Neither did most of the yeshivish boys I knew growing up. This is very much dependent on more defined circles.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:41 pm

amother wrote:

Neither did most of the yeshivish boys I knew growing up. This is very much dependent on more defined circles.

The only boys I know who are into specific brands of clothing and shoes live in Lakewood. In BP, I once heard 2 bachurim discussing if GB was better quality than G&G

naturalmom5

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:00 pm

amother wrote:

Why are you bashing bagel nosh? They have a great name for a reason. Was just there and all the food we ordered was delicious. No reason to put them down.

I am not bashing BN.. I happen to be friend's with the owner's wife. I just don't like the food or atmosphere there...

Ottimo and Kava are a thousand times better , for roughly the same price

debsey

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:36 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I am not bashing BN.. I happen to be friend's with the owner's wife. I just don't like the food or atmosphere there...

Ottimo and Kava are a thousand times better , for roughly the same price

\

I'm not sure how you are figuring that.

I can get a dozen bagels and two pounds of tuna at bagel nosh and feed my whole family supper (OK, with a homemade salad and ice cream for dessert)

If I took my entire family to Ottimo for supper, the bill would be well over 200.00.

Sure - the fries in both places might be a similar amount of money, but once we're talking food, there's no comparison.

(Ottimo is not in my kollel wife budget........ even with a professional salary.)

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:41 pm

Wow, I got two hugs, just for never having gone to Ottimo. I should probably be tempted...

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:42 pm

amother wrote:

The only boys I know who are into specific brands of clothing and shoes live in Lakewood. In BP, I once heard 2 bachurim discussing if GB was better quality than G&G

A six year old boy I know spent 10 minutes explaining his $100+ Nike LeBron's to me. He happens to be MO, and definitely not from Lakewood.

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