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S/O materialism - good or bad?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 6:55 am
In a recent thread, many expressed surprise that certain RW communities seem to have a high level of gashmiyus. Many posters have implied, or outright said, that having a lower material standard is a good thing.

I question that assumption. Is it a bad thing to live nicely? Is it a bad thing to have nice homes, nice clothing, or better appliances? Isn't Judaism about using gashmiyus for ruchniyus? Our ideal is not the ascetic who never gets married and lives in a hut, but someone who gets married, has children, and lives in a regular home with all the noise and mess and of course, furniture and appliances that that entails?

Further, if you somehow convince me that it is a Jewish value to live simply (which I'm not yet convinced), can anyone living in a first world country in 2018 tell me that they actually do live that way? Anyone here have dirt floors, an outhouse, an icebox for refrigeration? It seems to me that many who say others have a high level of materialism actually have many of their own places where they will spend money...

This is not an imamother bash as I have heard this numerous times IRL as well. And I didn't understand it any better then either.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:04 am
In general, people have many things in life they try to focus on. The more (time, money, energy) that is expended on gashmiyus, the less there's left for ruchniyus.

כך היא דרכה של תורה, פת במלח תאכל ומים במשורה תשתה ועל הארץ תישן וחיי צער תחיה ובתורה אתה עמל, אם אתה עושה כן, (תהלים קכח ב): "אשריך וטוב לך".
אשריך בעולם הזה וטוב לך לעולם הבא.

Externals are a distraction from accomplishing our purpose on this Earth.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:06 am
It's nice to live in comfort. It's not nice to live ostentatiously. It's nice to enjoy your life. It's not nice to be perpetually searching for the best, newest, trendiest, things.

Materialism is subjective. I would say that all of us live better than kings and queens did through most of human history.

The question is, what occupies your thoughts? What are your priorities? No one but you can answer that. A person can live in a palace and be primarily occupied with Torah, or live in a tiny apartment and be obsessed with stuff.

In a perfect world, this wouldn't depend on the community in which you live. It would depend on your values.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:07 am
We can't very well stop anyone from spending his money the way that he or she wants, unless that person belongs to an insular community where a rav can put takanos on individual spending.

We should realize, however, that our children will get used to whatever standard they are raised with and will expect at least that much for themselves when they are on their own.

We should also realize that nobody else wants to be responsible for our debts.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:11 am
People have different things they spend on. Some spend on clothes, others on wigs, a third on make up, others on cleaning help, take out, kitchen gadgets, technology, electronics, cars, vacations.... Hashem made the world. Yes. We should definitely enjoy it. But not lose ourselves in the gashmius part of it too much.


The normal standards have definitely gone up recently though!


Last edited by flowerpower on Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:16 am
The more people focus on the material world the less they end up focusing on the spiritual world.

Or to put it a different way . I sometimes see trucks from a very high end business with the words "Inspire yourself" painted on it.

They really mean "Indulge yourself" but even they realize that no one would want to look at themselves as indulging so they use that euphemism instead.
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mommish613




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:17 am
I don't think living comfortably takes away from Spirituality. Having better appliances or more efficient cars can actually give a person more menuchas hanefesh so that he has more room for G-d in his life. Sometimes the physical can actually help a person serve HaShem. I don't think most people can live like the gedolei hador whose lives are so enmeshed in serving G-D that they need very little physical pleasures.

BUT

I do believe that living a life of grandiose and extreme luxury can definitely take away from ones spirituality. There is an unprecented amount of wealth in today's frum Jewish communities- the question is how many wealthy individuals look at their success each day and acknowledge that it's not their own mighty power that brought them there but the will of G-D? How many of those same people who can afford the most luxurious cars and homes don't endulge in the greatest pleasures that they rightfully can afford because they want to save some for the world to come? And on the flip side, when an individual chooses to spend $1,000 on a monthly lease on a car he rightfully can afford, does he ask himself- am I driving around in this luxurious vehicle to better serve my creator?
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amother
Coral


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:24 am
I don't think gashmiyus is necessarily a bad thing. But I do think spending a lot of time thinking about clothing isn't always good for people, especially girls and young women.

My daughter attended a BY with a uniform, where there was significant pressure to make sure girls had similar accessories of specific brands, often expensive. My daughter was a "good BY girl" who didn't have an issue with following the uniform, but she did find the emphasis on specific brands and accessories off-putting.

Now she attends an MO high school where most families are wealthier than ours. Most of her clothing is from Target, and most of her classmates spend more on clothing than we do. But she tells me that none of her classmates care much about what brand of clothing they are wearing. And I think that's great, because pressure around clothing and appearances is so insidious for girls and the longer I can delay her exposure to that the better.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:31 am
pause wrote:
In general, people have many things in life they try to focus on. The more (time, money, energy) that is expended on gashmiyus, the less there's left for ruchniyus.

כך היא דרכה של תורה, פת במלח תאכל ומים במשורה תשתה ועל הארץ תישן וחיי צער תחיה ובתורה אתה עמל, אם אתה עושה כן, (תהלים קכח ב): "אשריך וטוב לך".
אשריך בעולם הזה וטוב לך לעולם הבא.

Externals are a distraction from accomplishing our purpose on this Earth.


Thanks for responding. As for your posuk, I have heard it translated that it means "you should be willing to live that way if necessary" not that it's a must. And if my husband and I are both working, where does that leave us?

As for your last paragraph - you say that externals are a distraction from our true purpose on earth. How? What IS our true purpose on earth? If I wouldn't be spending the extra time buying my kids clothing what would I be doing instead?
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:32 am
It's not at all black and white. Each person has to determine what's right for themselves.
Personally, I don't see how a Lexus, Infiniti or Audi would be helping me in ruchnius at all. Nor can I picture how a $3000 sheitel, $500 shoes, expensive children's clothing, lots of expensive jewelry, eating out very often, or luxurious vacations would help my ruchnius.
So for me, those things are unnecessary, and I hope that I can always be honest with myself and stay true to myself.

Edited to add that I certainly have a desire for all these beautiful, comfortable and expensive things, but I hope I will always be able to control my desires.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:38 am
allthingsblue wrote:
It's not at all black and white. Each person has to determine what's right for themselves.
Personally, I don't see how a Lexus, Infiniti or Audi would be helping me in ruchnius at all. Nor can I picture how a $3000 sheitel, $500 shoes, expensive children's clothing, lots of expensive jewelry, eating out very often, or luxurious vacations would help my ruchnius.
So for me, those things are unnecessary, and I hope that I can always be honest with myself and stay true to myself.


ITA that real luxuries like that wouldn't enhance my ruchniyus.

OTOH if I had to live in a shack with no running water, with only bread and water to eat, torn clothing, etc...I'm not so sure that would be so good for my ruchniyus either.

As Shlomo Hamelech so wisely said "Resh V'Osher Al Titen Li" - because either extreme is a challenge.

I've said this to DH many times and we both agree on this - I think either extreme materialism or extreme lack is a big challenge when raising children. This may be limited to my own personal experience, but the people I know who have challenges with their kids, all had one or the other - either the kids feel deprived because their needs haven't been met materially - or they have been exposed to big-time materialism and there they also feel their needs aren't met.

I'm grateful that our own struggle involves paying the bills. That's not so bad, relatively speaking...
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:38 am
amother wrote:
It's nice to live in comfort. It's not nice to live ostentatiously. It's nice to enjoy your life. It's not nice to be perpetually searching for the best, newest, trendiest, things.

Materialism is subjective. I would say that all of us live better than kings and queens did through most of human history.

The question is, what occupies your thoughts? What are your priorities? No one but you can answer that. A person can live in a palace and be primarily occupied with Torah, or live in a tiny apartment and be obsessed with stuff.

In a perfect world, this wouldn't depend on the community in which you live. It would depend on your values.


So there are two questions here.

What do you consider materialism? Is it buying your children matching outfits in Old Navy or Children's Place or is it spending a lot of money on high end clothing?

Again, if I wouldn't be spending my time buying clothing, what would I be spending my time doing?

For those that say that they don't spend time on clothing, but they do spend time watching TV, movies or whatever - How is that better?
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mommish613




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:44 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
So there are two questions here.

What do you consider materialism? Is it buying your children matching outfits in Old Navy or Children's Place or is it spending a lot of money on high end clothing?

Again, if I wouldn't be spending my time buying clothing, what would I be spending my time doing?

For those that say that they don't spend time on clothing, but they do spend time watching TV, movies or whatever - How is that better?


I think that each person has to ask themselves this question and answer based on their individual self. Part of this is NOT looking at your neighbor and deciding that their new car, house etc is bringing down their spiritual level. In the world to come we will only be asked about the way WE served HaShem. Not the way we think our neighbor did.

As far as what you can do besides shop? Cook meals for families with a sick parent, volunteer for a chessed organization, stuff envelopes for tzedaka or get a job!
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amother
Blush


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:44 am
Why are the choices: spend lots of time shopping and choosing kids clothing (who cares where?), And spending lots of time watching TV? Personally, I spend very little time on either of those.

Chazal are full of references to living a life of ruchnius with little emphasis on gashmius. Whatever gashmius Hashem created us with a need for should be elevated to be used to serve Hashem. There's a balance between wearing special clothing for YT and shopping every day for two months to find the exact set of clothing and accessories to wear on YT. There's a balance between cooking delicious food for shabbos and creating a "foodie" culture.

I think this should be obvious.
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:46 am
I would venture to say we have taken it to far. Bread and water was the way many tzaddikim lived. I don't believe that is expected from us today.
I believe if one has the means they should enjoy comforts.

Today the materialistic standards are so high that it itself is its own religion. And there is no space for true connection to Hashem there.

What's kids see as preparation for Yom Tov is mommy stressing over matching bows and tights for everyone. Is mommy stressing to have magazine worthy food for the guests that are coming. Is Tatty paying someone to assemble a pre-gab Sukkah. Oh- the stress of Chol Hamoed outfits!
Did we forget to talk to our kids about Yom Tov, about how Mommy loves sitting in the beautifully decorated Sukkah, Zeidy used to sing songs and the excitement and love for Torah and this beautiful opportunity to sit completely sorounded by a Mitzvah.
Yes, kids should look nice and have new clothes for Yom Tov and yes the food should be plenty and delicious. Yet, where is our focus and what message are we imparting to our children with that focus.

I see girls dressed so beautifully and Tznius. They look fancier on Sunday 9am then I looked at my wedding. Yes, they should have nice clothes, makeup is fine. Do they need ferragamo shoes and Burberry cardigans.. no! It's not the way of Torah. It's a high level of materialistic indulgence that takes away from ones ability to have spiritual receptors.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:47 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
So there are two questions here.

What do you consider materialism? Is it buying your children matching outfits in Old Navy or Children's Place or is it spending a lot of money on high end clothing?

Again, if I wouldn't be spending my time buying clothing, what would I be spending my time doing?

For those that say that they don't spend time on clothing, but they do spend time watching TV, movies or whatever - How is that better?


Everyone has to make their own decisions. There's no one answer.
TV and movies can teach you some lessons, you can spend time with your kids/husband while you watch...- but personally I don't think that's good for me either.
In an ideal world, I'd use all my spare time by spending time with my kids and husband, visiting our parents and grandparents, davening listening to shiurim or saying tehillim, exercising, speaking to friends (no lashon hora of course), making meaningful connections, learning, thinking, helping the needy...
I'd use the money that I need, save some, and donate a lot to the needy.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:50 am
mommish613 wrote:

As far as what you can do besides shop? Cook meals for families with a sick parent, volunteer for a chessed organization, stuff envelopes for tzedaka or get a job!


But let's say I do all that? I cook meals for families, I volunteer for Chesed organizations, and I work besides? And I also happen to live nicely? Why is that an automatically wrong thing to do?
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:55 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
But let's say I do all that? I cook meals for families, I volunteer for Chesed organizations, and I work besides? And I also happen to live nicely? Why is that an automatically wrong thing to do?


If it is within your means and it is not flamboyant then it isn't necessarily wrong for you. Only you know.
Yet, one might choose to live simpler even if they can afford more so that they teach their kids that gashmiyus is not important. We have something more special. We have Yiddishkeit and that is our life. If we have what we need and their is extra should we spend on luxuries or maybe give Tzedeka.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:57 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
But let's say I do all that? I cook meals for families, I volunteer for Chesed organizations, and I work besides? And I also happen to live nicely? Why is that an automatically wrong thing to do?


I think it falls into the category of tznius and being humble.
But that's my own take on it.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:58 am
With the right balance, materialism is ok. It's a problem when it becomes the main focus. I don't see an issue with each person having their own luxuries that work for them. I have my own. It's when things become a MUST have for everyone, then it hurts the community.
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