S/O materialism - good or bad?

amother

Turquoise

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:10 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

So there are two questions here.

What do you consider materialism? Is it buying your children matching outfits in Old Navy or Children's Place or is it spending a lot of money on high end clothing?

Again, if I wouldn't be spending my time buying clothing, what would I be spending my time doing?

For those that say that they don't spend time on clothing, but they do spend time watching TV, movies or whatever - How is that better?

Materialism is spending hours in pursuit of the perfect outfit (or couch, or car, or cut of brisket) no matter where it comes from and no matter how much it costs.

How we spend our days is how we spend our lives. If you watch a TV show or read a book that gives you insight into the human condition, I'd say that's a worthwhile use of time. If you just consume trashy entertainment, not so much. But our brains need to rest, just as our bodies do, and I suppose that if this is how you recharge, then great.

The question is, now that you have rested, how do you use your time? Deep down, most of us know when we are being productive, helpful and kind, and when we are just indulging our baser selves.

farm

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:16 am

Do you eat to live or live to eat?
I think that sums it up.
Do you outfit your children tastefully l'chvod shabbos/yom tov or spent hours going from store to store to find the perfect dress and the perfect headband and the perfect socks x4 the weeks and days leading to Pesach so everyone will turn to look (ogle?) when you bring your kids to birchas kohanim?
Do you research safe and roomy cars so you can drive carpool and get your family from A to Z or checkout what everyone else is driving and then search for the vehicle that will out-dazzle the rest and make you feel amazing whenever you drive it?
Do you take your family on a beautiful vacation to recharge before the new school year starts or do you obscess over each detail of each activity and restaurant and hotel amenity to ensure the time of your life and document each second of the trip with photographs to drool over for the rest of the year?

It's not possible to focus on your ultimate purpose in this world when distracted by materialism. And boy is it easy to get distracted and convince yourself you are elevating the materialism by using it to enhance or maintain your spirituality. Talking to myself here too.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:19 am

allthingsblue wrote:

It's not at all black and white. Each person has to determine what's right for themselves.
Personally, I don't see how a Lexus, Infiniti or Audi would be helping me in ruchnius at all. Nor can I picture how a $3000 sheitel, $500 shoes, expensive children's clothing, lots of expensive jewelry, eating out very often, or luxurious vacations would help my ruchnius.
So for me, those things are unnecessary, and I hope that I can always be honest with myself and stay true to myself.

Edited to add that I certainly have a desire for all these beautiful, comfortable and expensive things, but I hope I will always be able to control my desires.

So for me, having a current year Toyota Sienna would be a luxury, a $1200 shaitel would be a luxury, even $100 shoes would be a luxury. Personally, I think an all expense trip to Eretz Yisroel for my entire family would help my ruchniyus quite a bit... I think there's always something that most of us feel is just above.

But if someone is wealthier than me, and has the money to spend on whatever, does that make it wrong?

allthingsblue

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:24 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

So for me, having a current year Toyota Sienna would be a luxury, a $1200 shaitel would be a luxury, even $100 shoes would be a luxury. Personally, I think an all expense trip to Eretz Yisroel for my entire family would help my ruchniyus quite a bit...

......But if someone is wealthier than me, and has the money to spend on whatever, does that make it wrong?

I agree about a trip to eretz yisroel, and if I could afford it, that would definitely be on my list!
$100 shoes would also make it on my list because I like comfortable, well made, long lasting shoes with good soles.
A recent (not current year) make car or minivan would also make it on my list because I don't have to worry about constant upkeep.

Like I said, I think tznius plays a role in deciding what's okay and what's not.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

Why are the choices: spend lots of time shopping and choosing kids clothing (who cares where?), And spending lots of time watching TV? Personally, I spend very little time on either of those.

Chazal are full of references to living a life of ruchnius with little emphasis on gashmius. Whatever gashmius Hashem created us with a need for should be elevated to be used to serve Hashem. There's a balance between wearing special clothing for YT and shopping every day for two months to find the exact set of clothing and accessories to wear on YT. There's a balance between cooking delicious food for shabbos and creating a "foodie" culture.

I think this should be obvious.

Re the bolded-- where? Where's the references?

I agree with you about finding a balance, but isn't that an individual thing? Each person finds their balance a bit differently, so why the constant judgment?

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:40 am

I think it's all relative. And in any case materialism is a mind set, and not so much the amount of money you are spending.

In other words, someone can live in an expensive house, but if it's not flashy and he doesn't renovate it every year, then I wouldn't call him materialistic. Same with a car - someone can buy an expensive car because it's safer or more enjoyable to drive, but if he doesn't go out of his way to buy the flashiest one, and if he doesn't worship the car, I wouldn't necessarily call him materialistic.

Materialism is a culture. I was first struck by it when I met my dh and his friends. They were from a totally different society than I was, and all they talked about nonstop was money (the price of housing, of cars, of clothes).

That said, I wouldn't call someone materialistic if they have only one specific area where they focus on. Like if a mom really enjoys dressing her babies up, I wouldn't call that materialistic if she doesn't spend inordinate amount of time and money on other material pleasures. Then it's more like a hobby. If a guy really loves cars, but couldn't care less about his house or clothes, he's not materialistic. Or if a woman is really into interior decor, but is more about the creativity of it and less about the money spent - not materialistic.

Those moms who NEED to always dress perfectly, AND who need to dress their kids perfectly, AND who must drive a nice car, and who must live in a nice house decorated according to the latest trends (because God forbid they have their own taste)- those people are materialistic in my book, irrelevant of how much they ultimately spend. Especially if they look down at others whose lifestyle is not as photogenic as theirs.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:41 am

Again, this is a question that I really have - posters have said that the problem is spending so much time on the buying, comparing, etc. And that the time should be used for better things. But what are those "better things" that someone should be doing? This is an honest question, because I do think that our culture does not really have any "better things" for us to do (assuming I'm not a great cook and I don't enjoy stuffing envelopes).

As for living simply as a value in and of itself, my husband comes from a learning family, where they live simply and don't spend money so that the men can learn. But that's a means to an end, not an end on its own. So if the money is there, is there any problem with spending it?

On a practical level, I agree with SB, that you shouldn't get used to a higher level; also, it's prudent to put money into savings rather than spend all (or most) of the money you make. But im a dressing this on a ruchniyus/gashmiyus level only.

Another thing - you can argue the same thing about men working. Why work extra hours, or spend years in school to obtain a better job, when you can spend your time on ruchniyus pursuits and live more simply?

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:48 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

For me, $100 shoes are what I usually spend. Maybe because I am in Israel and they are more expensive. But in any case, any less than that and I am limping.

I don't think buying $100 shoes in my case is materialistic, because I don't buy shoes to impress anyone. I think the drive to impress others is a big thing in determining whether something is materialistic. There is a jewlery brand here called 'Impress' and a kitchen company called 'Status' and I cannot imagine ever buying from them, just their names evoke such a stench of materialism in my mind.

Someone who is wealthy can spend on whatever, but I think it's in good taste to take into account the surroundings. So if someone who is very wealthy sends their kids to a school where everyone is average income, it would be in bad taste to buy the latest greatest of everything and then brag about it. It would not be in bad taste to live in a nicer house as long as you don't discuss it all day long, or to take nicer vacations.

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:53 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

http://halachipedia.com/index......alism

There are some ideas.

I'm not judging, and I don't think people should. I do think gedolim should remind us of our ideals as frum Jews in this area as in others.

The Torah is not a lists of dos and don't. Someone who lives his life following halacha without a greater purpose is very sadly missing the point. Our choices in daily activities are meant to bring us closer to Hashem and develop us into better people.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:55 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't see materialism as bad just because the person could be doing better things. I just think it's distasteful, and it's hard for me to put my finger on exactly why. The focus on brands and cost is just not what I like to focus on. Especially when people get together, I really think they could be discussing other things.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 11:58 am

amother wrote:

http://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Materialism

There are some ideas.

I'm not judging, and I don't think people should. I do think gedolim should remind us of our ideals as frum Jews in this area as in others.

The Torah is not a lists of dos and don't. Someone who lives his life following halacha without a greater purpose is very sadly missing the point. Our choices in daily activities are meant to bring us closer to Hashem and develop us into better people.

The link you referenced is actually saying the opposite, in many cases. For example, in order to be a navi or a shofet they had to be wealthy. And materialism sometimes refers to emotional needs or rather wants - kovod, etc. So when someone is running after kovod- the prestigious job or whatever - this is considered materialism.

jflower

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:00 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Nothing much would happen without materialism but let's call a spade a spade, what I read about NY is nauseating.

Ruchel, it's very possible that you don't realize how insulting your post was. I live in NY, where there are many different frum areas and cultures. All of NY can't be seen as one location with only one way of doing things.

There are plenty of NYers who can afford a very luxurious lifestyle but don't live that way. They prefer to help their kids, give tzeddaka and save their money. You don't know all of us just as I don't know all Europeans.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:01 pm

amother wrote:

I also find the constant focus on brand names, etc distasteful, as the focus on over the top yom tov meals. But for some people, this is part of their yiddishkeit, so I'm trying to understand it... hence this thread.

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:04 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Ok. And? Read all of it. You wanted sources, I gave you some.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:04 pm

amother wrote:

Excellent post. I think you have hit the nail on the head. Bottom line, the issue is in trying to impress others. If I have the money, and I think a Lexus is more comfortable... but that's obviously not the point of a Lexus.

amother

Amethyst

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:12 pm

Can we take a step back and define gashmiyus as opposed to ruchniyus? the word gashmiyus refers to things that are material rather than spiritual. It is not necessarily to do with spending but rather (as many people have pointed out) where your focus lies. Is your focus on spiritual things or on material things? You can have very poor people whose entire focus is on material things (because they don't have them) and very rich people whose entire focus is on spiritual things.

I think what we are all decrying is people whose focus in not only constantly on the material things but who use material things as a raison d'etre. When people measure values through material properties as opposed to spiritual properties, we are in a mess.

A king of klal yisroel needs to be rich so that he will not be dependent on others for money. However, if he is obsessed with possessions, he will sin. (לא ירבה לו סוסים) His focus needs to be on the spiritual.

There is a story somewhere in chazal about a city where no one ever died. When the people came out and saw how people lived they were astonished. For such a short life you put in so much effort into your houses? Go live in orange crates! (I dont remember the exact details)

I think this is the point העולם הזה דומה לפרוזדור מפני העולם הבא we are in transit in this world to a world where only spiritual things matter. We must keep our focus.

If a person has money, he can and should spend it. But that shouldnt be his focus. and someone who does not have money should not spend his life trying to put on a show as if he has.

saw50st8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:20 pm

I think the concept of always buying "the best" in the frum communities is definitely gashmius. I think it's really a form of avoda zara. No, your kids don't need $100 shoes and $250 outfits and match all their siblings. They don't need $25 headbands and $15 matching socks. If you go in to frum stores, the bedding is all top quality at hundreds of dollars a set and shoes are all expensive leather italian shoes etc etc etc. It's all hidden behind things like "our daughters are all bas melech, they need to dress like one!"

That goes for ridiculously expensive shabbos meals, sheitels, clothes for adults, and the fake idea of hiddur mitzva (I don't mean that hiddur mitzva is fake, I mean that people hide behind it while really getting "the best" for gashmius reasons).

There's a difference between "my child has hard to fit feet and I need to spend more on their shoes" than "I can't put my kid in stride rite, it needs to be Venetti!"