S/O materialism - good or bad?

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 6:20 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

If you have access to old Light anthologies, one has a story by Zvi Zobin about a man buying a more expensive tie than a cheaper option, and some malach or the like explaining to him that now he would need to work that much longer instead of spending the time learning.

Not that I say that's how it works, and I doubt the author meant it either, but he likely did want to say that when one gets used to a higher standard, one is going to have make more money. (Note: I really don't remember the story beyond this.)

And re what would you be doing instead? Saying more Tehillim, of course! Tongue Out

Yes, I remember this story (But I didn't remember the author- wow to you!). So I do know people who live like that. That any money spent on extra (and their definition is extra is a real dining room table instead of a folding table) takes away from learning. But my question was about people who have the money anyway - let's say they inherited it.

simba

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 6:27 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I actually think its a more difficult question than that.

Everything in moderation. Including moderation.

If mommyg8 gets great enjoyment out of seeing her kids matched up like the Von Trapps in The Sound of Music, why is that deserving of a moral judgment ("good" or "bad').

Why is that any different from buying new clothes for Shabbat if they're all different? I mean. either way, its clothing -- whether Miri and Malka and Michal all match or not.

Now, if you tell me that MommyNotSoGr8 forces her 17 year old daughter to wear pinafores and bows, to match the 2 year old, and throws out every outfit if one kid stains hers, then maybe there's an issue going on. (And if she's forcing her 17 year old son to wear it, well ....)

The fact is that few of us live at subsistence, and most of us have something that we indulge in. What right do we have to judge people because they choose something different than we do.

We were not judging anyone in particular in this thread. That is not ok and in itself not Torah'dik. This is an objective discussion of Torah values (which usually evokes some negativity on this site).

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:15 pm

amother wrote:

This is something that today is so silly. It used to be that you could see who was richer or less rich by the way they dressed, ate, lived. Nowadays we all want to be the same! I don't know if you can blame the rich for that! Maybe we should blame the poor for wanting to look rich even without the means?

I should have phrased it differently. I meant that the gedolim such as Rebi were setting the bar for us re how to use wealth. And if we can't use wealth that way, then it's not good or appropriate for us to pursue wealth. Vs. reasonable hishtadlus to earn the money we need to live on a regular level.

But I hear your point.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:17 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Very reasonable words.
Maybe, more than asking, "How excessive," the question should be, "How obsessive."

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 7:22 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

There's the famous story of the meshulach who visited the gvir during supper. He lived austerely to keep it real and for himself, he ate dark bread and herring. The meshulach castigated him and told him that he needed to live within his means. (Which means something different than most of us apply to himself.) Because if he eats rich meats and wine, then when a poor person comes ok, he won't share his meal but he'll give him a square meal. But like this, he would think, so he hasn't eaten all day. You can live.

I maintain though that in this day and age, when we live fairly integrated lifestyles, I.e. rich people in the same zip code, going to the same schools and shuls as people of lesser means, that rich people will raise healthier kids if they live below their means. But that could still be way above mine. That's my take on the people with inherited money, if there's really that much to play with.

naturalmom5

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 1:31 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

So there are two questions here.

What do you consider materialism? Is it buying your children matching outfits in Old Navy or Children's Place or is it spending a lot of money on high end clothing?

Again, if I wouldn't be spending my time buying clothing, what would I be spending my time doing?

For those that say that they don't spend time on clothing, but they do spend time watching TV, movies or whatever - How is that better?

The fact that listening to shiurim or learning Chasidus or Mussar seforim isn't even on the radar. Its either clothing, shopping or TV speaks volumes ..

I didn't reject the Conservative shul, and my parent's values ( which she never forgave me for till the day she was nifteress) just to watch cheap imitations of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous...

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 2:20 am

This post by Fox (on a different thread) seems very apropos here.

Fox wrote:

This is the crux of the problem.

Actually, it's Hashem's money, and He is simply entrusting it to us.

We have almost completely lost sight of this, and our schools, which do a wonderful job at helping kids develop yiras Shemayim in so many areas, are strictly hands-off when it comes to this topic. Nor are our rabbonim, roshei yeshiva, or Rebbes likely to offend major donors by suggesting that people develop a different relationship with money.

Try to discuss this with people, and many respond with a combination of stupidity, stubbornness, and willful obtuseness, claiming that you don't want them to have any luxuries whatsoever. The reality is quite to the contrary.

Each of us is like our own little non-profit organization with a mission. Let's say my mission is rescuing and re-homing abandoned pet rabbits.

I'm going to have operating expenses. I'll need an office and space to keep the rabbits. I'll need plenty of hay and rabbit food. I'll need to pay myself a salary. I'll need to pay a vet to check out the rabbits. I'll need to advertise what I do, train volunteers, and screen potential adopters.

However, I might discover that buying more expensive hay is better for the rabbits' health, reducing my vet bills, and giving the rabbits shinier coats, which increases adoptions. I might learn that having a posh room in which potential adopters can interact with the rabbits also increases adoption rates and helps with hard-to-place rabbits.

On the other hand, I may discover that bins from the dollar store work just as well as litter boxes as the fancy online rabbit store brands sold for $15. Even if my budget would technically allow for expensive litter boxes, I know that I can save more rabbits if I use the cheaper ones.

Fulfilling my mission of rabbit rescue and re-homing means using my money wisely -- spending generously when it makes a difference and being frugal when it doesn't.

As Jews, we each have a mission. It's a bit more complicated than running a rabbit rescue, but the principle is the same: it's a balancing act in which we must constantly calculate the point of diminishing returns.

Yes, more expensive shoes perhaps last longer, but will the child have outgrown them before they wear out? And if not, how many pairs of cheaper shoes could have been purchased for the price of the more expensive shoes?

Yes, there's a mitzvah to be m'sameach a chosson and kallah. Will 400 people make them happier than 300 or 250? Will pressure on distant relatives to attend make for a happier simcha?

Do I really host large enough groups to need a behemoth of a house, or am I just deluding myself?

Does this expenditure further my mission as a Jew? At 120, will I be able to explain this to my "Board of Directors"? These are questions we should be training ourselves and our children to constantly ask, just like we check hechshers on food.

Mommyg8

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 9:50 am

Thank you for so many thoughtful responses. I just read through it and I'll iy'h read it again after this post. I'm glad I brought up this topic, I got a lot of food for thought. Sorry I couldn't respond earlier.

I started this thread with the question mark about the seeming emphasis of materialism in the RW world, specifically among young kollel couples. From comments I've gotten IRL, people seem to think that anything more than bread and water is innapropriate for a kollel family. And matching clothes for their kids? The epitome of gashmiyus.

I honestly don't understand this viewpoint. They're not spending more than they have. They're not necessarily buying designer clothing (unless they can afford it and/or Bubby bought it). Their value system is good - they are working so that their husbands can learn. Theyre not spending any less time davening or doing chesed than anyone else. So what's the problem?

And as for older, none kollel families, it does happen that I've noticed that it is usually the wealthier people who are more involved in Chesed. Maybe they have more time/ more cleaning help... or maybe not. Maybe they're just better people, and there's something about all that gashmiyus that makes them kinder people... who knows?

Just because someone is poor and can't afford to buy nice stuff doesn't mean that their emphasis is not on gashmiyus. Someone who doesnt have the money can be thinking about all the things they can't have night and day, while their wealthier neighbor bought her upscale clothing or furniture or whatever in one day, and she's done.

I was also brought up that gashmiyus/materialism is the enemy, and perhaps this is true if someone wants to learn in kollel forever. But for the rest of us - I really question that assumption. I don't see that my friends who buy designer clothing are more caught up with it than anyone else. And I don't see that women who spend time making sure they look good and their children look good are worse people than anyone else.

princessleah

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:03 pm

IMO, you know you're too into gashmius when the community standard is a jewelry package for a new bride that she/her groom's family cannot afford, and it is purchased with zedaka money so the she won't "feel left out."
It's one thing to stretch for a ring. It's another where there is a community standard that a lot of people cannot afford, and it diverts zedaka money away from "more important" causes like putting food in people's mouths. Honestly, a 19 year old girl does not need to be draped in jewels just because she was lucky enough to find love.

I have 2 friends who are very wealthy. Both made very over-the-top simchas. In both cases, it felt a little "distasteful" perhaps because the gashmius of these bar mitzvahs overshadowed any Torah/religious content that they had. It stopped being about someone being obligated in Mitzvot and was more a party for the parents to throw their money around. And there definitely some laws being violated, like bal taschit, tzniut, among others.
And yet: one of these couples built a mikvah in their community. They have a movie theater in their basement. So they clearly like material things and to spend their money but they also use it for the community.
The other couple has a house with a pool and a summer house and they also give a ton of money to their kids' school and tons of money to a community school where their kids don't go. So who am I to judge how they spend their money?

I guess the off-putting part is that they seem interested in the pursuit of making more money to spend more money. But if that money is used for good, is that necessarily a wrong attitude?