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Was today a turning point?
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 5:37 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Nope. Not gonna happen.

Prominent Republicans, including John McCain have condemned Trump. Even Joe Walsh ("I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted."), and assorted Fox News analysts, have come out strongly against Trump's actions today.

I mean, good heavens, did you HEAR him?

But his supporters will tell you that Trump questioning the US intelligence community that universally believes that there was Russian interference in the election (which is not the same thing as saying that the Trump campaign was involved), and stating that he instead believes Putin ... well, they'll tell you it was pure genius. Just wait.


Maybe I'm too optimistic but I feel that this was a turning point. I'm hearing language I have not heard before. Of course the imamother Trump phalanx is holding strong. But among people who know and understand national security, this time feels different. The alarm bells are going off. Trump has done many crazy things but this is new territory. I do not see this blowing over easily.
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 2:20 am
Fox- I agree that many law and order amothers here would say to throw the book at a Frum illegal immigrant- to deport her that is- but no one here would suffer a Frum child to be place in an ICE detention facility, without the parents knowing where they are, or for the mother to be deported without the child.

I take issue with your characterization of ICE as a benevolent search and rescue organization. If they saved a kid from a coyote that’s very nice but mostly what they’re doing now is terrorizing low income and non white communities with raids and checkpoints. And I’m not just talking about undocumented immigrants: do you walk around every day with proof of citizenship on your person? I sure don’t. But you and I are never going to be stopped at a checkpoint and told, “papers, please.” That only happens to certain kinds of people. Here’s an interesting article about what happens when ICE tries to deport US citizens and what our rights really are when we get tangled up in their system:


https://www.newyorker.com/news.....m/amp
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 2:57 pm
Reminder: It is now day 4 and nobody in the US has any idea what Trump and Putin agreed to in their super secret meeting. Not his top staff, his secretary of state, his national security advisor... They all seem in the dark. Who does Trump work for? Who does he represent? I'd like to hear a reasonable, rational explanation for all the secrecy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news.....=true


Quote:

Days after the Helsinki summit, Trump’s advisers have offered no information—literally zero—about any such agreements. His own government apparently remains unaware about any deals that Trump made with Putin, or any plans for a second meeting, and public briefings from the State Department and Pentagon have offered no elaboration except to make clear that they are embarrassingly uninformed days after the summit.

Unlike Putin, Trump did not brief his own diplomats on the Helsinki meeting. The American Secretary of State, national-security adviser, and Ambassador to Moscow, who attended the lunch after Trump and Putin’s private session, have been publicly silent on the substance of the meetings, leaving it to the Russians, for now, to make claims about what was actually said and done behind closed doors between the two Presidents
.
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 3:45 pm
While we don't know most of what was discussed during their meeting, we do know that Putin asked Trump to hand over several Americans for questioning. The names on the list included former US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul, Kyle Parker, and about eight other names, as well as Bill Browder, who is British. These are all people who worked on the Magnitsky Act of 2012, which authorizes the US government to sanction human rights abuses in Russia and freeze foreign assets of those responsible for the abuses. The act is named after Sergei Magnistsky, Browder's attorney, who died in a Russian prison in 2009.

McFaul has stated that he fears that if he were handed over to Russia, Putin would have him murdered too.

It's not surprising that Putin would want to "question" these individuals, since the Magnitsky Act and similar acts passed by other countries have caused much of Putin's personal overseas holdings to be tied up. Putin has already tried multiple times to have Browder arrested.

What is surprising is that Trump initially agreed to consider handing the Americans over. However, today Sanders walked back the statement. Also today, the Senate passed a bill protecting these individuals.

Putin claimed during their joint press conference this week that Bill Browder or his partners donated $400 million to the Clinton campaign; later he amended the amount to $400 thousand. In fact, Browder's partners donated about $18 thousand to the Clinton campaign, although overall they spent about 3 times as much on Republican campaigns as Democratic ones during the 2016 election cycle. Browder didn't donate any money to Clinton, as he is not an American citizen.

ETA: I see that Jeanette has already posted about Putin's request to "question" McFaul.

Anyone who's familiar with Schoolhouse Rock and has been following the news may appreciate this parody of "Conjunction Junction" titled "Double Negative Junction". It's from The Late Show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZfB5TFHyq8


Last edited by anon for this on Thu, Jul 19 2018, 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 3:51 pm
anon for this wrote:
While we don't know most of what was discussed during their meeting, we do know that Putin asked Trump to hand over several Americans for questioning. The names on the list included former US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul, Kyle Parker, and about eight other names, as well as Bill Browder, who is British. These are all people who worked on the Magnitsky Act of 2012, which authorizes the US government to sanction human rights abuses in Russia and freeze foreign assets of those responsible for the abuses. The act is named after Sergei Magnistsky, Browder's attorney, who died in a Russian prison in 2009.

McFaul has stated that he fears that if he were handed over to Russia, Putin would have him murdered too.

It's not surprising that Putin would want to "question" these individuals, since the Magnitsky Act and similar acts passed by other countries have caused much of Putin's personal overseas holdings to be tied up. Putin has already tried multiple times to have Browder arrested.

What is surprising is that Trump initially agreed to consider handing the Americans over. However, today Sanders walked back the statement. Also today, the Senate passed a bill protecting these individuals.

Putin claimed during their joint press conference this week that Bill Browder or his partners donated $400 million to the Clinton campaign; later he amended the amount to $400 thousand. In fact, Browder's partners donated about $18 thousand to the Clinton campaign, although overall they spent about 3 times as much on Republican campaigns as Democratic ones during the 2016 election cycle. Browder didn't donate any money to Clinton, as he is not an American citizen.


This is Browder's take on it:

http://time.com/5340545/bill-b.....rump/

He's also called it a "death sentence." "What the Russians have said very clearly on a number of occasions is they'd like to get me back to Russia ... and once I'm back in Russia, they would like to kill me. Anything that begins that process is effectively a death sentence for me," Browder said.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 3:52 pm
Quote:
Given what Putin has on Trump, he has dramatically upped the pressure to embrace him and do his bidding. Putin is effectively the president of the United States at this moment.
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:02 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
This is Browder's take on it:

http://time.com/5340545/bill-b.....rump/

He's also called it a "death sentence." "What the Russians have said very clearly on a number of occasions is they'd like to get me back to Russia ... and once I'm back in Russia, they would like to kill me. Anything that begins that process is effectively a death sentence for me," Browder said.


Thanks for posting that. Yes, Putin attempted to have Browder arrested before. I am not sure if Browder is in the US now, but if he is in the UK it would probably be wise for him to stay there for now, as the Senate resolution is non-binding.

I think that any of the people named, especially McFaul, would be in similar danger if handed over. It's particularly concerning that many of the people whom Putin wants to "question" are not lawmakers or financiers, but congressional staff who worked on the bill.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:39 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Quote:
Given what Putin has on Trump, he has dramatically upped the pressure to embrace him and do his bidding. Putin is effectively the president of the United States at this moment.


Hmmmm. I don't think so.

I don't know how to explain Trump's actions. And I don't know how much control Putin really has.

Does Putin have something on Trump? Its ridiculous to say that the Russians didn't spy on Trump when he visited. He was already very well known. And the Russians habitually spy on just about everyone. But I'd expect Putin to deny it. And I'd expect Trump to ... well, I don't know what I expect him to do.

Is it that Trump's companies have always derived very substantial income from Russia. Trump is always pro-Trump, even if it hurts others, and being pro-Russia helps his companies. (Or is it simply that Putin has his tax returns, and knows full well the extent of Trump's Russian interests.)

Or is it just hubris. Trump can't admit that Putin interfered, because it brings his election into question. I don't think he gets that Russia could have interfered without collusion.

One way or another, this is NOT a good situation. Funny thing is that my guess was always that there were those on Trump's campaign who colluded -- possibly including family -- it didn't go up to him. Now, I'm not sure.
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shiaeisen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:42 pm
Sadie wrote:
Fox- I agree that many law and order amothers here would say to throw the book at a Frum illegal immigrant- to deport her that is- but no one here would suffer a Frum child to be place in an ICE detention facility, without the parents knowing where they are, or for the mother to be deported without the child.

I take issue with your characterization of ICE as a benevolent search and rescue organization. If they saved a kid from a coyote that’s very nice but mostly what they’re doing now is terrorizing low income and non white communities with raids and checkpoints. And I’m not just talking about undocumented immigrants: do you walk around every day with proof of citizenship on your person? I sure don’t. But you and I are never going to be stopped at a checkpoint and told, “papers, please.” That only happens to certain kinds of people. Here’s an interesting article about what happens when ICE tries to deport US citizens and what our rights really are when we get tangled up in their system:


https://www.newyorker.com/news.....m/amp


Stop listening to the CNN lies. You’ll be much better off.
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shiaeisen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:46 pm
sushilover wrote:
I know it's "clear" to you that there is no explanation other than Putin having some intel on Trump.
I don't buy it because if I were in the pocket of a foreign government, I'd publicly state my condemnation of that country while quietly enacting policies to help them. Trump has done the opposite. (OF COURSE I hate what he saying. It boils my blood. But I can't deny that what he is doing is exactly the opposite of what Putin would want him to do. )

But whether you agree with my assesment or not, Putin interfered in the election in order to create chaos. If he can't get intel to control Trump, the best Putin can hope for is the media jumping to the conclusion that he has intel anyway, thus creating the chaos Putin so badly wanted.
So who is actually helping Putin right now? You are convinced that it is Trump. I haven't seen evidence to prove that. All I see is the media creating an atmosphere of chaos and fear (It's like Kristallnacht! It's 9/11!!) and making Putin really, really happy right now.


What’s really sad and amazing is seeing rabid snowflakes repeating the paranoid drivel they hear from CNN!
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shiaeisen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:48 pm
[quote="J



you think I'm sitting there glued to CNN and MSN swallowing up lies and slander about the president. [/quote]

Yup, you’ve certainly swallowed all their lies, and now parrot them here as fact!
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shiaeisen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:51 pm
Fox wrote:
I would urge you to go back through the political threads and actually make a count. I've done this myself on several occasions.

Actually, count not only the number of times that really horrific comparisons are made but also count the affirming responses or disapprovals.

In this thread, a poster more-or-less gently called out a poster for going too far in slamming liberals. I have yet to see anyone in this thread suggest that comparing frum Jewish women to the KKK is anything but business as usual.

On a similar thread recently, a poster made the same comparison and staunchly defended it. Again, silence.

But like I said, count the actual posts. There's a reason the #WalkAway Campaign and organizations like TPUSA are getting so much attention.


It’s the same between dems and republican. Dems are the biggest hypocrites ever!
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:54 pm
shiaeisen wrote:
What’s really sad and amazing is seeing rabid snowflakes repeating the paranoid drivel they hear from CNN!

Omg enough is enough. Just shut up already.

A Democrat should only dare write the kind of posts you do, conservatives would be up in arms for days. We all heard your drivel already so many times, now go curl up in a ball somewhere and take a long nap.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:00 pm
I think "rabid snowflake" is a good name for a rock band.

Anyway. breaking news is Trump invited Putin to the White House. To hand over the keys to him, I guess.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:04 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I think "rabid snowflake" is a good name for a rock band.

Anyway. breaking news is Trump invited Putin to the White House. To hand over the keys to him, I guess.


I am a moderate Republican. Voted for Trump, holding my nose. Somewhat pleased with some of his policies, never impressed with the man as a person.

With that said, I would totally join you at a concert featuring The Rabid Snowflake.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:05 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I think "rabid snowflake" is a good name for a rock band.

I think it’s a good name for that particular conservative poster who coined it. Very apt.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:14 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Hmmmm. I don't think so.

I don't know how to explain Trump's actions. And I don't know how much control Putin really has.

Does Putin have something on Trump? Its ridiculous to say that the Russians didn't spy on Trump when he visited. He was already very well known. And the Russians habitually spy on just about everyone. But I'd expect Putin to deny it. And I'd expect Trump to ... well, I don't know what I expect him to do.

Is it that Trump's companies have always derived very substantial income from Russia. Trump is always pro-Trump, even if it hurts others, and being pro-Russia helps his companies. (Or is it simply that Putin has his tax returns, and knows full well the extent of Trump's Russian interests.)

Or is it just hubris. Trump can't admit that Putin interfered, because it brings his election into question. I don't think he gets that Russia could have interfered without collusion.

One way or another, this is NOT a good situation. Funny thing is that my guess was always that there were those on Trump's campaign who colluded -- possibly including family -- it didn't go up to him. Now, I'm not sure.


I don't know exactly what's behind it but Trump seems deathly afraid of Putin.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:48 pm
DNI Dan Coats did a bad. He told the truth on national TV. Countdown till he's ousted by Trump.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:57 pm
Maya wrote:
Omg enough is enough. Just shut up already.

A Democrat should only dare write the kind of posts you do, conservatives would be up in arms for days. We all heard your drivel already so many times, now go curl up in a ball somewhere and take a long nap.


No, we'd be equally entertained.
Re Russia "questioning" anyone: B"H for checks and balances so it couldn't happen. No one person has that kind of power. Right?
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 19 2018, 6:17 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
No, we'd be equally entertained.
Re Russia "questioning" anyone: B"H for checks and balances so it couldn't happen. No one person has that kind of power. Right?


It depends what you mean by checks and balances.

The Senate bill passed today is a non-binding resolution, so it can't protect the people on the list. In theory the House and Senate are intended to function as a check on the Executive branch, but both Ryan and McConnell have been resolute in their reluctance to use these powers on Trump, and the Democrats cannot accomplish much in either house without cooperation from Republicans. In general, Republicans have not shown much interest in acting as a check on Trump.

Regarding the judicial branch, Trump has appointed about one hundred judges to the federal appeals and district courts. (There was a large backlog of unfilled seats because the Senate had been refusing to conduct hearings for Obama's appointees).

Trump appointed Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, and now he's chosen Brett Kavanaugh to fill Kennedy's seat. There's a lot of focus on the likelihood that he'll gut Roe v Wade, the Voting Rights Act, and the ACA, and promote the rights of corporations over those of individuals. But he wasn't on the original short list of judges presented to Trump, nor was he the first choice of most conservatives. In fact, some conservatives initially considered him an "elitist" choice.

So why was Kavanaugh chosen? Well, he's said publicly that he would reverse the ruling allowing the appointment of special counsel. He's also written that he believes that presidents should not be encumbered by criminal or civil investigations or lawsuits while in office. (This would be a new belief of his, as he was part of Ken Starr's investigation of Bill Clinton).
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