S/O S/O If your DH/ relative learned in Kollel and worked

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 10:26 am

amother wrote:

Your question was looking at rigor of the work / study so parnasah really is not part of your question.

Not looking for a comparison - the question you posed was : "The proof is in the pudding -- how many working guys would voluntarily go back to a heavy yeshiva schedule ( mean the real thing?) would venture to guess not too many"

You can only answer that question based on where you are 'right now' in your mind with regard to your working life.

So ask that to 1st or 2nd year big four accountant - he may yell = heck yah get me out of here.

Ask that to the Big 4 partner 20 years later - he's still working hard - though the work isn't as mind numbing. He's making nice money but that comes with heavy stress and responsibility.

My dh is BH that “ big four partner” and the stress is beyond belief. His firm has actually done studies showing that many partner’s marriages end in divorce due to stress from work. They actually require their partners to speak to psychologists at periodic intervals to manage stress. BH he is blessed from Above with a solid career and nice parnassa but please don’t think there isn’t a huge stress level that enters our lives from it. And it’s not just for his career but for the people who work for him and their parnassa as well - many of them frum and he’s their advocate. And his stress often comes home with him.

The years leading up to partnership were intense. Nights where he came home to sleep for two hours or just to get his Tefillin and daven and return right back to work. I literally had no help at all - not in the morning or afternoon or evening. He would literally walk in minutes before Shabbos only to leave right after Havdallah. He was not home on Sunday either. Our kids saw him on Shabbos and Yom Tov and that was it. He was gone before they woke up and home way after bedtime. I was working - some times full time and as his salary improved part time. We did it because neither of us have parents who could help us and we never received any support. We were on our own and there was no choice but to kill ourselves and do our hishtadlus and see what Hashem blessed us with.

Even now whenever he’s officially on vacation he is constantly in contact with work and checking emails and responding to them. He doesn’t get a break at all during the day, the week, the month. Erev Shabbos especially in the winter is a hectic day. Right after havdallah he is checking emails and seeing what he needs to take care of immediately - especially in the winter when Shabbos starts before the world day ends. While his hours are now BH less his stress level is far greater. It’s a responsibility not only to himself and our family but to many others as well.

My dh can’t wait for the day he can retire and head back to Yeshiva. It’s a dream and a goal. And to him that is far less stressful than his current work or any year of work he has ever had. To learn undisturbed, not to have crushing responsibility to others and constant pressure, and to have minyanim scheduled into your day where you are, bein hasedorim and bein hazmanim with your family - sounds like a gift.

Please don’t get me wrong. We are very grateful to HKBH for giving us partnership. But it does have a price tag.

amother

Plum

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

Yes. I know from where I speak.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 11:14 am

amother wrote:

The sample set is very relevant to the results of the survey.

I thought that was the point? These are all former kollel guys who are now working. So what's wrong with the sample?

ETA: I'm starting to wonder about many of your dhs' kollel experience. There must be something very different today about the kollel system than in my days. I remember that a few of my friends' husbands were quite happy to leave kollel and go to work. These were serious learning men who I assume are now koveya itim. But we were not in Lakewood - maybe that's the difference?

Also, I guess I can think of men who would find kollel easier than working. But these are very intellectual men who are also serious learners -- I would imagine that they would be totally lost in a regular work environment. But not all men are like that, though...

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:33 pm

This is coming from a guy who has only worked one summer so take it as you wish. However, my husband felt its like comparing apples and oranges. That's not even getting into all the different kinds of jobs, guys, and kollelim. If a guy really invests as much as he could into his learning he can get extremely wiped (something that can be hard for a lot of us to understand I think). On the other hand, yes, the responsibilities (taking off, showing up on time, bosses, deadlines etc.) make it a much easier "job". But the actual "work" can be just as or even more tiring. The hours obviously are unique to each job/kollel as well as take home work/learning at home. But he was still very adamant that kollel is only "the easy way out" for a guy that does not take his learning as seriously as he could. Also, he mentioned that the reason that a break (even for an hour) is so crucial in Yeshiva is because of how impossible it can be to learn straight for 10 hours!!

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:40 pm

amother wrote:

One summer at work doesn’t really count. It’s a limited exposure without real skin in the game - without fear of being fired and loosing benefits and a paycheck. Without the demands put on regular employees.
And working in a cubicle for 10- 12 plus hours a day without a break is easier? At work many people don’t get a break beyond a bathroom or eat lunch at your desk. Forget an hour. And while I’m sure learning 10 hours straight is difficult so is sitting at work and producing for that amount of time. And most frum guys today supporting a frum family and paying tuition BH don’t work 9-5 anymore but 60-80 hours a week. 10- 12 plus hour days without breaks.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:49 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you for explaining this so clearly! Your words are much better than mine, but that's exactly what I was trying to say.

ETA: just saw the response above. My husband has been working for 20 years - does that count? And no, he doesn't work in a cubicle, he would go stir-crazy if he had to do that. He actually enjoys his job... hopefully everyone else's husband here do too.

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 11:02 pm

amother wrote:

(Again, you can totally disregard this as one summer obviously means nothing.)
However, I think that maybe for the kind of guy that can do brain picking work for 10-12 hours in a cubicle, Kollel would be easier. I'd venture to say that MOST guys find that very difficult and would therefore ALSO find learning 10 hours a day very difficult. For example, my father left kollel to be a Rebbe earlier than he wanted to because learning was too hard for him as a full time "job". He is also not the accountant type. Not only that, learning is not just sitting and thinking all day, they live it! And the more invested someone is into what they're doing the bigger toll it takes on them. I've seen my husband sweat, scream, be (obviously very lightly) physical while learning as well as spend hours and hours and hours preparing a chaburah (which are not easy to get passed in his yeshiva).

But I'm not denying the amount of hours a working guy puts into his week may be significantly more than a guy in kollel. I'm just arguing the point of which is an easier job, as many posters seem to think "learning" is the easier way out in terms of the work of it. I understand that there are many more components that affect which one is overall easier which without specifics cannot be addressed so generally.