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The Surrendered Wife: What's the deal on it?
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:25 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
If the source is kabbalistic, I would certainly not take it literally. I know many women who handle the finances in the home (myself included) and we're doing just fine. Look, if it works for you, great, but it's definitely not halacha, and there's lots of room for individual couples to do what works for them.

I did like some of the other things in the book though. And I like the third title the best, somehow the title "The Surrendered Wife" does not sit too well with me. I am certainly not a surrendered wife, nor do I have any plans to ever be one. " The Empowered Wife" sounds better.


ABSOLUTELY! By all means everyone should do what works for them, I was just getting worked up from ppl who never read the book & had huge opinions... there happens to be a lot of torah values in the book (although was written by a non jew) & it is fascinating to see how well it works. I definitely agree with you that everyone should do what works for them, I was just answering the ppl who were challenging the ideas. There are torah sources to everything as there is a jewish author who rewrote it with torah sources. So if someone doesn't believe in it it's there choice but the torah is true therefore the dynamics in most relationships (excluding abuse, unfaithful, addictive etc. husbands) work very well with these ideas! Just the way I see it, feel free to disagree.
I do agree that these ideas are not halacha, noone ever said it was. It is concepts & ideas of human relationships nothing do with halacha! Might be better to call it hashkafa.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 2:03 pm
amother wrote:
So I ask. Roof needs repair, but the man runs the show. But he's not running the show and the roof is threatening to cave in. But since he runs the show, I am not allowed to call the roof repair guy on my own. Did I get that right? So I have to just sit and watch the roof fall further and further into disrepair?
I'm glad to not be surrendered.

The idea is that if the man is not abusive, neglectful, or a complete cretin, he will figure things out on his own. How many men die each year because they let the roof get so bad it collapsed on them? This is basic life skills stuff.

Of course an extreme, dangerous situation (a collapsing roof, fire safety, pool safety, whatever) is not the first place to be giving a previously-irresponsible person responsibility. If you'd read the book, you'd have realized it doesn't say that.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 2:17 pm
I don't love it or hate it, but I think a lot of what people get upset about is stuff they've created in their own imagination based on the title.

I think the book is much more feminist than people think. True, on an ideological level it doesn't promote the kind of pure equality that liberal feminism does (although I'd argue that's not the only kind of feminism out there; there have always been feminist schools of thought that see men and women as inherently different).

But on a practical level, it's basically a how-to guide for getting equality in marriage. The author is reaching out to women who are burdened with more than their fair share of the mental load (and quite possibly the physical load) and telling them how to get back to a division of labor that works for them.

The author isn't infallible, and the advice won't work for every marriage. As is true for every book on marriage. But I'd say it's worth reading.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 2:21 pm
iluvy wrote:
Wouldn't this be very much more conducive to good marriages if it were gender netural?

No.

Maybe someday in the future, the answer would be yes. But right now:

- women, on average, are more likely to buy a book that's clearly for women than a gender-neutral guide to Good Spousing.

- a book about how to share the mental load with your spouse, instead of feeling stuck with more than your fair share, is going to resonate way more with women.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:39 pm
What's this "Torah's view on marriage" people keep talking about? I don't think any of the imahot were surrendered, in fact, they controlled and sometimes manipulated situations and their husbands' behaviors.
The Rambam? Who tells women to wash their husband's feet and instructs husbands on the proper and effective way to beat your wife?
I'm genuinely asking-- there is a "Torah view on marriage"? Or a societal one in different frum communities
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 5:33 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I don't love it or hate it, but I think a lot of what people get upset about is stuff they've created in their own imagination based on the title.

I think the book is much more feminist than people think. True, on an ideological level it doesn't promote the kind of pure equality that liberal feminism does (although I'd argue that's not the only kind of feminism out there; there have always been feminist schools of thought that see men and women as inherently different).

But on a practical level, it's basically a how-to guide for getting equality in marriage. The author is reaching out to women who are burdened with more than their fair share of the mental load (and quite possibly the physical load) and telling them how to get back to a division of labor that works for them.

The author isn't infallible, and the advice won't work for every marriage. As is true for every book on marriage. But I'd say it's worth reading.

I agree with this and like what you wrote.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 6:48 pm
das wrote:
Amother, I agree that story is just plain ridiculous. But this has nothing to do with the book AT ALL. and superwify, the book prevents this type of thing, actually. She is very into saying, "I can't" without excusing yourself and NOT making yourself into a shmatte.

Yes I know and that’s why I said that at the end- NO where in the book does it encourage women to be stepped on. It actually focuses a lot on self care.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 6:52 pm
princessleah wrote:
What's this "Torah's view on marriage" people keep talking about? I don't think any of the imahot were surrendered, in fact, they controlled and sometimes manipulated situations and their husbands' behaviors.
The Rambam? Who tells women to wash their husband's feet and instructs husbands on the proper and effective way to beat your wife?
I'm genuinely asking-- there is a "Torah view on marriage"? Or a societal one in different frum communities


It’s hard to believe that the holy Rambam instructed men on effective wife beating. Source?

Washing the feet?- maybe. But it was the norm if those days. And even though it was also normal to beat your wife then, it is written very clearly in the Torah that one who hits another is called a Rasha.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:43 pm
amother wrote:
Either: Follow the six steps surrendered wife method. You can't just follow one step of relinquishing control and expect things to be perfect. You gotta do all the other steps too.
Or: fix it myself.
How would you deal with it?
I know that before reading SW, I would have asked, nagged, guilted, cried, and maybe finally taken care of it myself, feeling resentful every step of the way.


I don't get it. If the roof needs fixing, you say "darn it, the roof is leaking. do you want to find a roofer, or shall I?" And if he says he's going to, but doesn't, you say "y'know what, I'll find a roofer, no worries"

Why cry or nag or resent? Why "surrender"? Why make something into a big deal when it really isn't? Do you really think that your husband's self-worth is tied up in who calls the roofer, or snakes the sink?
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:56 pm
amother wrote:
I don't get it. If the roof needs fixing, you say "darn it, the roof is leaking. do you want to find a roofer, or shall I?" And if he says he's going to, but doesn't, you say "y'know what, I'll find a roofer, no worries"

Why cry or nag or resent? Why "surrender"? Why make something into a big deal when it really isn't? Do you really think that your husband's self-worth is tied up in who calls the roofer, or snakes the sink?


And guess what ? If the wife asks the above ques and the dh answers "u can call the roofer". Fine. But if that same wife has to ask that ques to her dh about every little thing that needs to be done, and if the dh says "u can do it", then even withoiut nagging /complaining, the things get done BUT EVERYTHING IS ON THE WIFE AND THATS NOT A PROPER MARRIAGE. it seems this is the point of this amothers question. That some men will not do anything even if the wife doesnt nag....and then these wives must do everything...


So the amother poster who wrote about the roof is making a point that this book wont work for certain marriages...
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amother
Tan


 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:04 pm
amother wrote:
I don't get it. If the roof needs fixing, you say "darn it, the roof is leaking. do you want to find a roofer, or shall I?" And if he says he's going to, but doesn't, you say "y'know what, I'll find a roofer, no worries"

Why cry or nag or resent? Why "surrender"? Why make something into a big deal when it really isn't? Do you really think that your husband's self-worth is tied up in who calls the roofer, or snakes the sink?


If you want to be treated like a queen - your husband needs to feel like a king - and the road to kingdom is respect and responsibility.
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:07 pm
amother wrote:
So the amother poster who wrote about the roof is making a point that this book wont work for certain marriages...


If there would be one book that worked for every marriage I assume it would get better coverage then this one.
If it works for some. Great.
If it didnt work for you. Move on.
If you have a strong opinion but didn't read it. Whatever.
If you think it's bad for society at large. Then go work on legislation to ban the book.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 26 2018, 2:23 am
amother wrote:
I don't get it. If the roof needs fixing, you say "darn it, the roof is leaking. do you want to find a roofer, or shall I?" And if he says he's going to, but doesn't, you say "y'know what, I'll find a roofer, no worries"

Why cry or nag or resent? Why "surrender"? Why make something into a big deal when it really isn't? Do you really think that your husband's self-worth is tied up in who calls the roofer, or snakes the sink?

If a man consistently leaves this kind of thing to his wife, of course she's going to be resentful. Time and energy spent calling the roofer and dealing with the issue is time and energy she could have spent on something else.

I disagree that it's not a big deal. If it's a one-time thing, it's inconsiderate of the husband, but not terrible. But if it happens over and over? It means the wife has a lot more on her plate than she wants, and that's going to have a very real effect on the rest of her life - on her mental state, on her practical ability to get things done, possibly on her career.
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4pom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 26 2018, 7:45 am
https://ov163.infusionsoft.com.....9d2ae

Heres a link from Laura Doyle that may help understand the theory.

Note. 1-First thing is self- care.
2- its the wifes attitude not the husbands irresponsibility that was the bottom line.
3- sounds very much like written by frum girl. IMHO
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 28 2018, 8:06 pm
amother wrote:
If you want to be treated like a queen - your husband needs to feel like a king - and the road to kingdom is respect and responsibility.

I don't want to be treated like a monarch nor do I want anyone else to be.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 28 2018, 9:15 pm
SuperWify wrote:
It’s hard to believe that the holy Rambam instructed men on effective wife beating. Source?

I referred to this chapter of Rambam upthread, paragraph 10 says

כָּל אִשָּׁה שֶׁתִּמָּנַע מִלַּעֲשׂוֹת מְלָאכָה מִן הַמְּלָאכוֹת שֶׁהִיא חַיֶּבֶת לַעֲשׂוֹתָן כּוֹפִין אוֹתָהּ וְעוֹשָׂה אֲפִלּוּ בְּשׁוֹט

There's no English translation there, mine is "any woman who does not do any one of the tasks that she is obligated to perform should be forced to do them even using a whip."

The Raavad (who your husband probably calls "The Rīvid") disagrees and says he should reduce the amount of money he gives her until she submits (another good reason to not leave all the finances in his hands ...)

Commentators disagree about whether Rambam means for the whipping be administered by the husband or a beit din (another good reason to be glad that Jewish courts do not currently have this ability ...)

But I agree that Rambam does not provide any tips on how to use a whip.

For those following the Handmaid's Tale references, see season 2, episode 8, where (hidden content contains a spoiler)
Hidden: 

Fred beats Serena with his belt
.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 29 2018, 8:56 am
InnerMe wrote:
A little off tangent- but can you explain this statement?
I'm not understanding. AFAIK the curse from the sin of eitz hadas will only be over once mashiach comes. What are you basing this on?


Some hold epidural is the answer to the curse and actually a friend was told by her rav not taking it when possible is assur because you make yourself suffer. I'm actually not taking it on purpose simply because I think I recover better.

Roof wise I'd remember once then unless I see movement I will call the roofer. THis sin't something that can wait.

I agree that the Torah has various rabbinical interpretations from the whip quote to https://www.cheela.org/node/49836 (use google translate for the gist)

Handmaid's tale twists the Torah as do lehavdil "normal" brands of Xtian, just MORE.

Hidden: 

ex: the sheet!
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