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Really genuinely seriously just want to know
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:31 am
amother wrote:
I'm curious why people are saying that "those" women have low self esteem. I mean the women that leave others out of conversations and chats. IME, those people are the ones that have so much going for them, they're the belle of the ball and the center of the party. do they really feel threatened by lil old me and treating me like a human being with feelings?
I had this experience when a few ladies were standing in a circle and chatting and another woman comes over and places herself directly in front of me and joins the circle as if the spot I was standing on was an empty space. she just pushed me out. it was really hurtful.
sometimes low self esteem is a cause for behaving selfishly. It's a way of knocking someone else down to boost myself up.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:35 am
amother wrote:
sometimes low self esteem is a cause for behaving selfishly. It's a way of knocking someone else down to boost myself up.


I can understand this concept but this person that did this to me is really well liked and center of all the fun. whatever she decides goes, she's not a bad person but she's far from nice. I don't understand how everyone loves her. and I've seen her treat others less than kindly. she doesn't seem to suffer from low self esteem but who knows.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:39 am
Are the mean ladies just not answering or they just don't see how cruel they are? Or maybe they think its justified because someone is annoying.

There really truly is no excuse for the cruelty described on the bungalow thread and this thread.

I really understand why Moshiach is not here.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:40 am
I think in a society where everyone has to try so hard to fit in, it takes a lot of guts to be the one to turn to the not-so-'in'-possibly-introvert-or-even-slightly-nerdy person and say "hey would you like to join us we're going out?"

People are worried to get a glare, or a comment afterwards. Everyone kind of feels bad but hopes someone else will do the nice deed.

I'm not trying to justify - just trying to get into their mind.

I can kind of understand it in teenagers, even though it's also horrible, but they're still immature, but in adults, it's very sad that people can't be inclusive and kind to everyone.
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:43 am
salt wrote:
I think in a society where everyone has to try so hard to fit in, it takes a lot of guts to be the one to turn to the not-so-'in'-possibly-introvert-or-even-slightly-nerdy person and say "hey would you like to join us we're going out?"

People are worried to get a glare, or a comment afterwards. Everyone kind of feels bad but hopes someone else will do the nice deed.

I'm not trying to justify - just trying to get into their mind.

I can kind of understand it in teenagers, even though it's also horrible, but they're still immature, but in adults, it's very sad that people can't be inclusive and kind to everyone.

Your explanation further points to aa low self esteem. If the person felt good enough about herself she wouldn't care what others think of her when she invited the neb, the introvert, the loud mouth, the geek etc. to join.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:45 am
I realized that every member that belongs to a 'narcissistic group' (my own made up word) for one reason or another has a seriously injured self-esteem and the set up of the group is what gives them chiyus.

They have a thrill of feeling;
Only we are part of the group hehe not you.
I am privy to all the group secrets, not you.
We get to do all these cool things and we don't share it with the rest of the world hehe. (of course, they share in clipped words when self-inflation is needed)
We always have each other its so cozy hehe.
I am updated on all the news but you are just a nebby outsider. Ahh feels good to be superior to you. Yum.

They will have a million reasons why they didn't invite people that don't belong to the 'group' and they will even bring sources why what they are doing is correct.

Becuase they never learned healthy ways of feeling good about themselves, they feel like garbage without getting a daily dose of any of one of the above thrills.

There are families that operate this way; only the daughters are welcomed for abc or only the siblings are invited to this outing.


OP I come late to Sheva Brochos because that's when everyone else comes. In our family, the bigger issue is that nobody knows when to go home. Seriously.
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weasley




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:47 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
And what about when the person isn’t annoying?

Some people are just immature and rude. In my bungalow Colony there is certain group with a “nickname” for the group. I am technically part of this group. Last summer the men made a chat. One day we were sitting in a circle and I suggested the ladies make a chat too. They all just looked at each other and smirked. So of course I realized there already was a chat and I just wasn’t on it. Whatever. I assure you I am not the annoying one. Several of these ladies however, are quite annoying.

The answer op, is that many people are extremely selfish and self absorbed. A lot of them are struggling with low self esteem. Emotionally healthy adults just don’t act that way.


Gosh!

Do they all wear pink on Wednesdays too?!
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:47 am
thunderstorm wrote:
Your explanation further points to aa low self esteem. If the person felt good enough about herself she wouldn't care what others think of her when she invited the neb, the introvert, the loud mouth, the geek etc. to join.


Yup, I guess you're right. I didn't actually read all the answers.

I also wanted to emphasize that I don't think it's so often because the person left out is annoying (in such a case you could possibly slightly with a stretch of the imagination say it's a teeny bit the left-out person's fault).

It's more often probably because they're just not cool, so it makes the cool crowd less cool - which is a totally selfish reason.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:52 am
amother wrote:
Spinoff of a couple of other threads.

1. If you left someone out of op conversation /lunch etc at a bungalow colony, why did you do it?

I don't understand the that question but maybe I've missed the post it refers to. Why was there a presumption that one would be having lunch with that someone in the first place? I don't go to bungalow colonies, but if I did, would there be an expectation that I would be eating with everyone staying there? Or a conversation, is the situation that N people were sitting at the same table but only N-1 of them talking to each other and ignoring person N? Or N-1 people were standing in a tight circle and wouldn't expand it when person N tried to join?
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:52 am
causemommysaid wrote:
Are the mean ladies just not answering or they just don't see how cruel they are? Or maybe they think its justified because someone is annoying.

There really truly is no excuse for the cruelty described on the bungalow thread and this thread.

I really understand why Moshiach is not here.


I think they know what they are doing.

I BH have a small group of close friends where I live, like 2 other ladies (BH many more friends out of town). A few friends but not close. Its not a lot but its fine. But they dont go to the same shul as me and they dont send their kids to the same schools that I do. I have serious social anxiety (I have anxiety in general) and events like the PTA mother's tea and shul kiddushes are crippling for me, but I try to go.

One year, an old neighbor who I was friendly with was at the tea. I walked up to her, took a breath, and said hi, how are you etc. We made small talk and then I asked her if she wanted to be my "date" because we were both there alone. She said "oh, I already have a date". So I said, can I be a third? She literally said "we have a third also". No “come join us”. FINE I got the hint. I sat down at an empty table and this woman happened to sit there also, across from me. Her date and "third" were next to me with a few others literally sat with their backs to me and ignored my attempts at joining the conversation. It was nothing short of cruel. I know that she has no issues with me at all and when we were neighbors, we'd hang out, she'd invite me to her house for social things, etc. This was just mean. And the other women at the packed table also seemed to have gone out of their way to ignore me.

At my shul (honestly I stopped going to this one because of snobs), there are a few women who I am friendly with and talk to at kiddush. There are a few women who are just nasty and on many occasions have come up to me and another friend who I was talking to and replaced me in the conversation. Even when I try to assert myself back in, it doesn't work and I just walk away. Thats not cool, and its not what you are supposed to do to someone. Its on the friend to reassert the original conversation and welcome the third in.

I am a person who feels the pain of the other women at the park on shabbos who is sitting alone and join her and make a conversation with her. I am socially anxious but not awkward, and I imagine others feel the same way that I do, so I gather courage and force myself to be friendly. I teach my kids to reach out also on on Purim I have my kids davka give mm to kids who are not their friends. I encourage my kids to make playdates with new kids... my guess is that other moms dont do this.

Middle school never really ended.


Last edited by watergirl on Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Wine


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:01 am
[quote="Sadie"]1) I’m shy and introverted and only feel really comfortable talking to people that I already know (or someone who’s new but skilled at making others feel comfortable) I can’t be relied on to take the initiative to make a new person in a group feel welcome.

This is exactly me!!! Sad
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:04 am
amother wrote:
I'm curious why people are saying that "those" women have low self esteem. I mean the women that leave others out of conversations and chats. IME, those people are the ones that have so much going for them, they're the belle of the ball and the center of the party. do they really feel threatened by lil old me and treating me like a human being with feelings?
I had this experience when a few ladies were standing in a circle and chatting and another woman comes over and places herself directly in front of me and joins the circle as if the spot I was standing on was an empty space. she just pushed me out. it was really hurtful.


Hugs! That is so hurtful!!
Just understand that being the center of the party and appearing to have a ton of friends does not necessarily mean that they do. Most people are not innately bad. If someone had a normal upbringing with love and warmth then they don't want to normally make themselves be on top and put other people down. It just doesnt stem from a a healthy source. Its usually the people that are missing the love, warmth, connection from somewhere in their lives, that act this way.
People that make other people suffer are usually suffering themselves. You can choose to look at them with pity to help see them in a better light.
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mommy201




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:10 am
watergirl wrote:
I think they know what they are doing.

I BH have a small group of close friends where I live, like 2 other ladies (BH many more friends out of town). A few friends but not close. Its not a lot but its fine. But they dont go to the same shul as me and they dont send their kids to the same schools that I do. I have serious social anxiety (I have anxiety in general) and events like the PTA mother's tea and shul kiddushes are crippling for me, but I try to go.

One year, an old neighbor who I was friendly with was at the tea. I walked up to her, took a breath, and said hi, how are you etc. We made small talk and then I asked her if she wanted to be my "date" because we were both there alone. She said "oh, I already have a date". So I said, can I be a third? She literally said "we have a third also". No “come join us”. FINE I got the hint. I sat down at an empty table and this woman happened to sit there also, across from me. Her date and "third" were next to me with a few others literally sat with their backs to me and ignored my attempts at joining the conversation. It was nothing short of cruel. I know that she has no issues with me at all and when we were neighbors, we'd hang out, she'd invite me to her house for social things, etc. This was just mean. And the other women at the packed table also seemed to have gone out of their way to ignore me.

At my shul (honestly I stopped going to this one because of snobs), there are a few women who I am friendly with and talk to at kiddush. There are a few women who are just nasty and on many occasions have come up to me and another friend who I was talking to and replaced me in the conversation. Even when I try to assert myself back in, it doesn't work and I just walk away. Thats not cool, and its not what you are supposed to do to someone. Its on the friend to reassert the original conversation and welcome the third in.

I am a person who feels the pain of the other women at the park on shabbos who is sitting alone and join her and make a conversation with her. I am socially anxious but not awkward, and I imagine others feel the same way that I do, so I gather courage and force myself to be friendly. I teach my kids to reach out also on on Purim I have my kids davka give mm to kids who are not their friends. I encourage my kids to make playdates with new kids... my guess is that other moms dont do this.

Middle school never really ended.


Wow you are amazing! I definitely agree with you to teach your children to include others even if their not their friends/type. It's so important!
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:12 am
crust wrote:
I realized that every member that belongs to a 'narcissistic group' (my own made up word) for one reason or another has a seriously injured self-esteem and the set up of the group is what gives them chiyus.

They have a thrill of feeling;
Only we are part of the group hehe not you.
I am privy to all the group secrets, not you.
We get to do all these cool things and we don't share it with the rest of the world hehe. (of course, they share in clipped words when self-inflation is needed)
We always have each other its so cozy hehe.
I am updated on all the news but you are just a nebby outsider. Ahh feels good to be superior to you. Yum.

They will have a million reasons why they didn't invite people that don't belong to the 'group' and they will even bring sources why what they are doing is correct.

Becuase they never learned healthy ways of feeling good about themselves, they feel like garbage without getting a daily dose of any of one of the above thrills.

.


you summarized my experience in several settings. I just wonder why successful people who lead the (seemingly) "good life" need to do this? unless they do it out of thoughtlessness, they don't mean to be exclusive or mean but they don't think into it.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:13 am
weasley wrote:
Gosh!

Do they all wear pink on Wednesdays too?!


haha! I know a clique that actually does that, besides for in the movie.
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mo5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:17 am
amother wrote:
I don't get it. Not everyone will like everyone else or enjoy everyone else's company. Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone annoys some people. Some people may annoy more people, but I assure you, we are all annoying to at least a few people.

Part of being an adult is to know how to put yourself to the side a little bit and be kind and polite even to the annoying people.
Ignoring people who are annoying are what kids do.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 9:41 am
watergirl wrote:
I think they know what they are doing.

I BH have a small group of close friends where I live, like 2 other ladies (BH many more friends out of town). A few friends but not close. Its not a lot but its fine. But they dont go to the same shul as me and they dont send their kids to the same schools that I do. I have serious social anxiety (I have anxiety in general) and events like the PTA mother's tea and shul kiddushes are crippling for me, but I try to go.

One year, an old neighbor who I was friendly with was at the tea. I walked up to her, took a breath, and said hi, how are you etc. We made small talk and then I asked her if she wanted to be my "date" because we were both there alone. She said "oh, I already have a date". So I said, can I be a third? She literally said "we have a third also". No “come join us”. FINE I got the hint. I sat down at an empty table and this woman happened to sit there also, across from me. Her date and "third" were next to me with a few others literally sat with their backs to me and ignored my attempts at joining the conversation. It was nothing short of cruel. I know that she has no issues with me at all and when we were neighbors, we'd hang out, she'd invite me to her house for social things, etc. This was just mean. And the other women at the packed table also seemed to have gone out of their way to ignore me.

At my shul (honestly I stopped going to this one because of snobs), there are a few women who I am friendly with and talk to at kiddush. There are a few women who are just nasty and on many occasions have come up to me and another friend who I was talking to and replaced me in the conversation. Even when I try to assert myself back in, it doesn't work and I just walk away. Thats not cool, and its not what you are supposed to do to someone. Its on the friend to reassert the original conversation and welcome the third in.

I am a person who feels the pain of the other women at the park on shabbos who is sitting alone and join her and make a conversation with her. I am socially anxious but not awkward, and I imagine others feel the same way that I do, so I gather courage and force myself to be friendly. I teach my kids to reach out also on on Purim I have my kids davka give mm to kids who are not their friends. I encourage my kids to make playdates with new kids... my guess is that other moms dont do this.

Middle school never really ended.


I relate to and agree with so much of what you are saying. And I also make sure that my kids include others that are not as popular on Purim and other times. In a few of the situations that I described I also know for a fact that these women have no issues with me and don’t look down on me socially. I am also not at all socially awkward. Complete opposite. In any social situation I can figure out what’s going on and how to fit in within a minute or two.
I’m also just as “cool” as any of them. I (and my kids) have all the right clothing, accessories and toys. And I’ve got more money then all of them too.
It’s just a low self esteem and immaturity issue. But there are just no excuses to treat people that way.
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amother
Green


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:15 am
Back to the op, I think lateness is cultural. Some communities are always late, some are punctual. I think the problem arises when these communities mix. (Think Syrian/Yekke wedding.)
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 11:13 am
amother wrote:

I haven't frozen anyone out of conversations, but I have seen this happen. The person may be annoying or have non-responsive conversations or they just give a monologue without conversing. I politely listen until the person is finished. We have a neighbor who the ladies just ignore because she is so annoying.


Do you really, honestly believe that any of those reasons are valid excuses to hurt a fellow human being. Do you think that response will have a leg to stand on in the next world when you are asked why you transgressed 'לא תונו איש את עמיתו'?

I am actually pained when I see or hear about my children being mean to another child (and I am talking about children as young as 3/4 year olds. Not teenagers.). My children know that they can have the best report card and the teacher at pta can say that they are the best in the class, but, if their midos are not top, it all means nothing to me.

How do parents expect their children to have good midos if thy don't behave nicely themselves?
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 11:27 am
[quote="amother"]
Sadie wrote:
1) I’m shy and introverted and only feel really comfortable talking to people that I already know (or someone who’s new but skilled at making others feel comfortable) I can’t be relied on to take the initiative to make a new person in a group feel welcome.

This is exactly me!!! Sad

Me three Silent
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