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Really genuinely seriously just want to know
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sneakermom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 10:38 am
Chayalle reading about that play really made me smile!! How adorable and what an important lesson!!

This thread makes me wonder what the solution is. How can we improve the way we get along in groups?

If we raise our kids with stronger self esteems will they have less of a need for inclusiveness? Or is it a selfishness that drives us to exclude others? We just can’t be bothered. In which case we need to emphasize chessed and going outside of oneself.

How can we become more accustomed to Ahavas Yisroel instead of just focusing on our own needs?

Is it okay for people to have their own groups to feel a sense of support and belonging? Is it too much to expect that everyone will want to give that up, kinda let the walls down and let everyone in?

The same idea applies in families. We enjoy having our own little domains, where we feel comfortable with our immediate family. Is it too much to expect everyone to give that all up and let everyone in from the street.

Where do you say yes? Where do you say no? Are boundaries just rejections? Are groups allowed to have boundaries? To know where it starts and ends? Or is that plain rejection and selfishness?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 1:30 pm
I think there's a time and place for everything....I do think we need to teach our children to look out for other people, and to go out of their comfort zone if it means making a difference to someone else. At least some of the time! And not to be deliberately excluding! Like, it's okay to have an evening with friends sometimes....but there also has to be times when it's not just all about me.

Like I posted, when my friend's mother was being honored, I didn't feel like I belonged at her table. I wouldn't have been insulted if she told me that she was with her family that night. I was actually floored that she would go so far. Her Ahavat Yisrael really was extra special.


However, staying with our group of friends exclusively in a continuous setting is just not in the spirit of the middos that the Torah teaches us. That a family should feel miserable all summer in a bungalow colony....or a new family on the block feel so unwelcome that they want to move (I moved last year, and I'm so grateful for all the lovely people in my new neighborhood who acted nothing like that, B"H, and went out of their ways to welcome me.).....is just hard to excuse.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 1:46 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I think there's a time and place for everything....I do think we need to teach our children to look out for other people, and to go out of their comfort zone if it means making a difference to someone else. At least some of the time! And not to be deliberately excluding! Like, it's okay to have an evening with friends sometimes....but there also has to be times when it's not just all about me.

Like I posted, when my friend's mother was being honored, I didn't feel like I belonged at her table. I wouldn't have been insulted if she told me that she was with her family that night. I was actually floored that she would go so far. Her Ahavat Yisrael really was extra special.


However, staying with our group of friends exclusively in a continuous setting is just not in the spirit of the middos that the Torah teaches us. That a family should feel miserable all summer in a bungalow colony....or a new family on the block feel so unwelcome that they want to move (I moved last year, and I'm so grateful for all the lovely people in my new neighborhood who acted nothing like that, B"H, and went out of their ways to welcome me.).....is just hard to excuse.


It’s impossible to excuse. And that’s why the excuses are nauseating.
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 2:17 pm
I was a long-timer on my block. We had a new neighbor move in. Eveyone was telling me I should go over and welcome her which I did. I was representing the ladies. I got totally shut down making me feel like a jerk for making the effort. The woman avoided me for years. Now we can say hello and good Shabbos when I initiate. She never says good Shabbos first.

After her rejection, I am still civil to new people but more tentative. This woman cold shouldered other people not even saying hello or good Shabbos to them. If you looked from the outside, it may look like we are snubbing her out. But she has such a strong brick wall that no one wants to feel like a stalker for inviting her to join.

She is a divorcee, and she treats her family the same way. Some people who are not included have a chip on their shoulder. It is not always the groups fault.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 2:20 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
It’s impossible to excuse. And that’s why the excuses are nauseating.


You are absolutely right. There's a side of me that always wants to be dan l'kaf zchus, that's why I said hard to excuse.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 2:40 pm
amother wrote:
I was a long-timer on my block. We had a new neighbor move in. Eveyone was telling me I should go over and welcome her which I did. I was representing the ladies. I got totally shut down making me feel like a jerk for making the effort. The woman avoided me for years. Now we can say hello and good Shabbos when I initiate. She never says good Shabbos first.

After her rejection, I am still civil to new people but more tentative. This woman cold shouldered other people not even saying hello or good Shabbos to them. If you looked from the outside, it may look like we are snubbing her out. But she has such a strong brick wall that no one wants to feel like a stalker for inviting her to join.

She is a divorcee, and she treats her family the same way. Some people who are not included have a chip on their shoulder. It is not always the groups fault.

So your block is so friendly that rather than women welcome her on their own, they elected YOU to be the one woman welcome wagon. No one else brought her so much as a cookie. And after such a warm welcome, this woman who you dont know very well (but well enough to know the insides of her familial relationships) who is divorced (what does that have to do with anything, unless you all are even kinder to her because she could use it! Esp chaggim season), has a “chip on her shoulder”? And because of this cold divorcee, you are now only civil to any new people? Thats beyond. You can lick your wounds from this one rejection which took place years ago and get over it enough to realize that your reaction is off.

The way she was welcomed wasnt right. And the way you now are “civil” to newcomers and blame this one unpleasant interaction is not ok.
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 6:20 pm
It's unreal.

Those of you excusing yourselves (BH not many), as I asked earlier up thread, do you really think this excuse will be good enough in the next world?

I sometimes wonder. Truly wonder.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 7:14 pm
Hi, I'm the obnoxious lady who pom4 initially quoted. I think my point was missed. I wasn't trying to excuse rotten behavior. I was trying to provide insight into what may bring it on.
We are all good people. No one wants to be mean, but sometimes for whatever reason they are. Instead of bashing them, and rewarding their efforts at improvement with "mussar" for the action they are trying to rectify, try to understand, and help them along through empathy, and encouragement.

And yes, I have been on both ends of welcoming behavior, as well as behavior that embodies the opposite. ( Who hasn't?)

Signed,
An essentially good, yet terribly flawed individual, who is working hard to improve her social skills, and relationships, midos, and other areas of avodas Hashem and mostly puts high sensitivity to the feelings of those around her, as a high priority.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 7:22 pm
Deleted
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 7:38 pm
watergirl wrote:
So your block is so friendly that rather than women welcome her on their own, they elected YOU to be the one woman welcome wagon. No one else brought her so much as a cookie. And after such a warm welcome, this woman who you dont know very well (but well enough to know the insides of her familial relationships) who is divorced (what does that have to do with anything, unless you all are even kinder to her because she could use it! Esp chaggim season), has a “chip on her shoulder”? And because of this cold divorcee, you are now only civil to any new people? Thats beyond. You can lick your wounds from this one rejection which took place years ago and get over it enough to realize that your reaction is off.

The way she was welcomed wasnt right. And the way you now are “civil” to newcomers and blame this one unpleasant interaction is not ok.


I love how eveyone is blaming the existing people. Outsiders are often at fault. One poster wrote how she fit in and was socially adept and she was richer than eveyone, so it must be the group. Unbelievably, no one picked up on this. I couldn't be friends with anyone who measured who is the richest or who had the right accessories. That attitude comes off.

The lady in my neighborhood was welcomed very nicely and shot down anyone else who went to her also. She was the socially off one. Her own sister mentioned how difficult she is years later. Weird was the word she used.

She was welcome just fine. I offered her hospitality and was treated like a stalker. You would have thought I was offering her poison. Another lady brought her baked goods which she didn't accept. Another lady went over there, and neither was let in the door. Please tell me what the "right" welcome should be. There is no right welcome with some people. They. Just. Want. To. Be. Left. Alone.

When a new family moves in, we always know who it is before they move in. Being she is divorced, it is harder to meet ladies. DH usually meets the husbands at shul and friendships are formed from there. I usually get close to the wives.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 8:00 pm
amother wrote:
I moved to a new neighborhood. Only ONE person came to say hi. (She moved away shortly thereafter.)

We needed a screwdriver so dh borrowed from a neighbor. He knew the husband from shul. I went to return it. "Hi, I'm Mrs So and So I just moved in. Nice to join this block etc." The woman said a limp hi, took the screwdriver and closed the door. That shabbos I could hear that that woman's backyard was a neighboring gathering place. I felt silly joining but after a month of no one being welcoming I pushed myself to go. I sat there for an hour and literally no one had teh decency to say Hi, how are you settling in etc. I was pretty much ignored.

I am very successful professionally and happy personally with my family, friends etc but I must say I came home and was fighting tears all day. After several more attempts I gave up. Apparently, a group of neighbors moved in at the same time and are very close. They're not interested in newcomers. Yes, there are adult woman who haven't outgrown childhood cliquey behavior.

Right now we are looking to sell our house and buy another, largely because of this.


Is this NY or elsewhere?
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 8:29 pm
amother wrote:
I love how eveyone is blaming the existing people. Outsiders are often at fault. One poster wrote how she fit in and was socially adept and she was richer than eveyone, so it must be the group. Unbelievably, no one picked up on this. I couldn't be friends with anyone who measured who is the richest or who had the right accessories. That attitude comes off.

The lady in my neighborhood was welcomed very nicely and shot down anyone else who went to her also. She was the socially off one. Her own sister mentioned how difficult she is years later. Weird was the word she used.

She was welcome just fine. I offered her hospitality and was treated like a stalker. You would have thought I was offering her poison. Another lady brought her baked goods which she didn't accept. Another lady went over there, and neither was let in the door. Please tell me what the "right" welcome should be. There is no right welcome with some people. They. Just. Want. To. Be. Left. Alone.

When a new family moves in, we always know who it is before they move in. Being she is divorced, it is harder to meet ladies. DH usually meets the husbands at shul and friendships are formed from there. I usually get close to the wives.


Since you are referring to me, let me reiterate. I am not an outsider to the group. I just choose not to chase after them because I see how they treat other people and how much Loshon hora they talk. As soon as someone walks away, that person becomes the next topic. Please don’t blame me for their nasty behavior. And in your particular case it does sound like the new comer was at fault. But we are not talking about exceptions to the rule.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 8:33 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Is this NY or elsewhere?


Lakewood. But I don't want this to reflect badly on whole Lakewood-we lived previously in a wonderful neighborhood with really nice people.
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4pom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 8:59 pm
amother wrote:
Hi, I'm the obnoxious lady who pom4 initially quoted. I think my point was missed. I wasn't trying to excuse rotten behavior. I was trying to provide insight into what may bring it on.
We are all good people. No one wants to be mean, but sometimes for whatever reason they are. Instead of bashing them, and rewarding their efforts at improvement with "mussar" for the action they are trying to rectify, try to understand, and help them along through empathy, and encouragement.

And yes, I have been on both ends of welcoming behavior, as well as behavior that embodies the opposite. ( Who hasn't?)

Signed,
An essentially good, yet terribly flawed individual, who is working hard to improve her social skills, and relationships, midos, and other areas of avodas Hashem and mostly puts high sensitivity to the feelings of those around her, as a high priority.


I genuinely appreciate this post and apologize if I completely misheard your previous post/ posts.

There’s a big difference between this attitude and the clueless not seeing other people or saying “Why should I extend myself- I have plans / I am happy with my group”
I apologize for putting both groups together.

As for me, like other people mentioned. I avoid people I feel who act like this... I have no shared interests. You on the other hand , I hear you loud and clear...and can anticipate meaningful companionship...
my apologies!!!

Hoping for more Ahavas Yisroel

And
Loved Chayalles tulip /daisy play
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amother
Wine


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 9:41 pm
I've moved recently and my new neighbours also probably think that they were so warm and I rejected them and now it's my fault that I'm so lonely.

So I ask you all. Don't judge. We moved under very difficult and sensitive circumstances. We moved to live amongst a certain type of yidden who are very different to me and who have very different cultural norms with regard to privacy, individuality and lifestyle.
I was busy,overwhelmed and disoriented and working hard to settle down in a new job as well as helping my children find their feet.

So I didn't manage to keep track of who sent me cookies to thank them properly, I didn't sit down for a shmmoze as I'm running to my car late for work, so now I'm considered rude and weird.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Wed, Aug 22 2018, 8:39 am
4pom wrote:
I genuinely appreciate this post and apologize if I completely misheard your previous post/ posts.

There’s a big difference between this attitude and the clueless not seeing other people or saying “Why should I extend myself- I have plans / I am happy with my group”
I apologize for putting both groups together.

As for me, like other people mentioned. I avoid people I feel who act like this... I have no shared interests. You on the other hand , I hear you loud and clear...and can anticipate meaningful companionship...
my apologies!!!

Hoping for more Ahavas Yisroel

And
Loved Chayalles tulip /daisy play


Yeah.. I guess I'd avoid people who I get the sense really don't care about the impression they give off to others, but I haven't really met people like that... Also, in my mind clueless, and careless are different.
In the example I gave of the person who whispered over my head, I think she was clueless - I was appalled that someone could act like that, I avoided extended conversation with her for a couple weeks, then realized that really she is a warm, kind person, who I learn alot from in many ways, and most likely had I brought up my hurt feelings with her, she would have felt really bad about the way she acted, and been more conscious of her behaviour.
We can never know what prompts a person to act in a particular way ( examples have been given about what might bring it on) and it is important not to rush to label a person as bad. Key is that for other people I need to make excuses, for myself no "excuse" is good enough I have to constantly be expanding my comfort zone ( like you brought out)
- like metuka said "do you really think they will buy that in shamayim?"
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Wed, Aug 22 2018, 10:21 am
amother wrote:
I've moved recently and my new neighbours also probably think that they were so warm and I rejected them and now it's my fault that I'm so lonely.

So I ask you all. Don't judge. We moved under very difficult and sensitive circumstances. We moved to live amongst a certain type of yidden who are very different to me and who have very different cultural norms with regard to privacy, individuality and lifestyle.
I was busy,overwhelmed and disoriented and working hard to settle down in a new job as well as helping my children find their feet.

So I didn't manage to keep track of who sent me cookies to thank them properly, I didn't sit down for a shmmoze as I'm running to my car late for work, so now I'm considered rude and weird.


It's probably not too late. You can explain over a chat that you were overwhelmed with moving and appreciate your welcome. There is no need to go into special circumstances. Smile when you meet your neighbors. It should blow over.
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