My son refuses to go back to yeshiva

too tired

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 7:54 am

amother wrote:

Let me tell you our story.
I’ll preface that we are big believers in “al Pi darko”.
One of our sons (several are gifted) has learning issues . He struggled through school to such an extent that we ended up pulling him out of chol & homeschooling for several years.
We got him loads of help & he did go on to Yeshiva Gedola where he learnt according to his ability. He’s very bright, hard worker & entrepreneurial but due to his learning disabilities it didn’t come easy.
At 20 he had enough. We were concerned that shidduchim would be hard. He’s a very frum boy not one bit modern. And by us stopping Yeshiva at 20 is a drop out.
But we didn’t think that anything good would come from him being unhappy.
We encouraged him to leave Yeshiva & go to work in a frum environment.
B”H he blossomed. His learning improved.
He married at the right time within months of starting shidduchim to a wonderful girl from an equally wonderful family.
He is an amazing person in every way. He daavens, learns & is happy & fulfilled.
Listen to your son. You can’t go wrong with al Pi darko.

Whom do I ask such advice? I think maybe she should leave school a year early. Like do 11 th and get a job in a place that has lots of girls so she has some social life.

singleagain

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 8:10 am

OP, I know nothing about your circles in regards to learning/shidducim etc... But one line of your OP jumped out at me

"Most of his unhappiness though is self made. "

With this I strongly disagree ... People do not usually choose to be unhappy. It makes no sense that ppl would willingly cause themselves to be miserable.

Please please please have your son screened for depression. The longer any sort of mental illness goes untreated the worse it becomes. But with the proper combination of therapy and meds, he can thrive.

And if your worried about what a mental illness diagnosed will do for his resume, please consider what will happen if he never gets the right help.

I could be reading this wrong, based on my own life experience, but as a person living with depression, I promise you that I would never have chosen to be 'unhappy' and 'miserable' if God didn't decide to alter my brain chemistry for His own reasons.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 8:13 am

too tired wrote:

Whom do I ask such advice? I think maybe she should leave school a year early. Like do 11 th and get a job in a place that has lots of girls so she has some social life.

I have a newsflash for you. No one out there has any magic advice. Go with al Pi darko.
What does DD enjoy? Feel good about?
In our case DS was very close to us & shared everything. We knew what he liked, excelled at & we did everything to encourage it. Woodwork, art, ceramics..
We have a younger boy who wanted a pet . I don’t care what anyone says or thinks. He got a pet to love & care for. He mourned when it died. He’s a well rounded & emotionally developed person because of it.
Is DD musical? Artistic? Creative? Can she cook/bake? Do cake decorating classes with other girls? Everyone has something they enjoy that brings them fulfilment & self esteem.
Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha

amother

Teal

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 9:35 am

singleagain wrote:

I also disagree with that statement that his unhappiness is self-made, but the only other option isn't that he is depressed. His unhappiness can be a result of societal expectations and mandates. This 12 hours day of learning doesn't work for many, regardless of one's abilities and intelligence. Being forced into an environment that doesn't work for you can make someone very unhappy, especially when all other options are labelled in a negative fashion.

OP. Your son is an adult. Why don't you have a serious conversation with him and ask him what HE wants? Not mechanchim, therapists and rebbes. What does HE think is the best way for him to proceed to set up his future? By this age, he is very well aware of the shidduch ramifications and the pros and cons of other options. Ask HIM, and then based on his response you can offer some guidance, and options to fine tune his choice.

You can prepare yourself before you sit down and talk to him. Sort through all available options so you have the info to properly discuss it with him. There's Israel as one option; perhaps he can join a kollel where the schedule is much more flexible; there are yeshivas that offer a combined learning and college schedule so he can gain some life skills, etc.

I know that these options aren't what you want to hear, especially because most of them are not well accepted in the Chassidish community. But as a mother of a few bochurim, and yes Chassidish too, I can tell you that you need to consider long term gain vs short term gain. You can push the boy where you want him to be, but really break him. Or you can leave shidduchim up to Hashem, and you do what you need to do to build up your son to be the best he can be.

It one truly believes that shidduchim are bashert, then why do we worry about it so much? (Don't worry, OP, I ask myself this same question all the time.)

ShishKabob

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 12:35 pm

amother wrote:

oldest son , 19 yo. was always top of class until Yeshiva Gedola. He is an erlich good boy and due to know fault of his had a bad class. Not bad as OTD ch'v but not the standard he or we were used to. We switched him out of that yeshiva as he refused to go back and bad luck again, he had a miserable year in new yeshiva. Now new zman commencing in Cheshvan and he made it clear to us that he is not going back. We are in major dilemma. he is our oldest, we are very chasidish, going to 3 different yeshivas will not do well for him for shidduchim. however he is miserable! We spoke to difft therapist and mechanchim and they all agree but at the same time he is very very unhappy. Most of his unhappiness though is self made. He just doesnt seem to know how to see the good. We explained to him many times that he is at the end of the tunnel and he should just stick it out. What do we do???

I'm just trying to give you a different spin.
We don't know what tomorrow will bring. Maybe he will not get engaged right away, maybe he will. It's understandable that you want him to hold it out. It depends on how serious the situation is. Let's say it wont look good that he went to the Mir. Btw, there are very many good chassidishe boys in the Mir. Maybe he needs to marry someone that going to the Mir is not a chisaron, it's bdavka a maala. Maybe he doesn't need the cookie cutter chassidishe girl that'll look down at that.
I think there's a halacha in the Shulchan Aruch that a child gets to choose where he wants to learn and parents can't stop him from going to that place. Trust me, it aint pleasant all the time, but it's the halacha. ( I just used the word aint!)
I think you should rethink this. Many people with bochurim would dance for joy that their child wants to go to any yeshiva at all.
Bhatzlocha!

Last edited by ShishKabob on Thu, Sep 06 2018, 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

asmileaday

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 12:35 pm

heidi wrote:

So in other words you want him to marry a woman who thinks he's a top learner.
Who will then be very quickly disillusioned.
And he will be very unhappy with a wife who pushes him to do what he wasn't doing in the first place, but you led her to believe he was.
Sometimes it's better to go on your own derech and find someone who matches who you are than to be forced to be someone you're not.

This again and again!

Op please for your son's future happiness do what's right for HIM not for the world of shidduchim.

You want your son to marry someone that's compatible with him not with the list of yeshivahs he did or didn't go to.

If you feel that his unhappiness is something that will follow him no matter where he goes (you know your son) it's time for him to work on this now with an individual therapist. Making the best of whatever life gives you is an important life skill for him to learn and it's not too late.

Good luck.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 1:11 pm

amother wrote:

I agree. but what can I do with a 16 year old boy who just does not enjoy learning. has zero enjoyment. He is in a chilled yeshiva not to hard but is never happy. goes and comes but shleppy.... he likes to play music and spends time on that but please he needs some fulfilmint in life.To the op, a healthy person is all you need your son to be when he reaches shidduchim. It is not just a shidduch he also needs to go on having a stable marrige. Do whag is good for him now

nechamashifra

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 1:33 pm

amother wrote:

At first I thought this was a joke re this will not look good for shidduchim. Do you see shidduchim as a marketplace where you try to get the best product you can afford? Shouldn't it be more about 2 people being right for each other?
Do you want your son to be happy? Or do you care more about appearances?

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:41 pm

amother wrote:

Before you do anything else you need to address this issue. Just telling him to stick it out isn't going to resolve his negative outlook. He needs to speak to someone who can validate his feelings and understand the root of his problem. You don't want this type of outlook to CH"V follow him into marriage. Marrying someone who doesn't see the bright side of a situation is a recipe for disaster.

You aren't clear, OP, as to whether YOU (or your husband) has spoken to therapists and mechanchim, or if your son has been to therapy and talked to his mentors. If you have done the talking on his behalf, he may be feeling very misunderstood. He needs to be heard, he's a big boy and needs to have a say in his own destiny and future.

As to how it will look in Shidduchim, I'd like to share with you that my parents (and my mother A"H specifically) had very strong emunah that Hashem is mezaveg zivugim, and we really saw this play out in amazing ways with our Shidduchim.

I grew up in a JPF/heimish family, but some of my brothers gravitated towards Chassidus, as my grandparents grew up Chassidish. One of my brothers wanted very much to learn in a certain Chassidish-type yeshivah in E"Y. He was an excellent learner, but for some reason, he had a farher in NY and was not accepted. People advised him that that particular interviewer was very tough, so he should just go to E"Y and have a farher there and will surely be accepted. He did this, but no luck - no acceptance. It made no sense whatsoever, all his friends were just shocked. There he was, in E"Y far from home with no yeshiva, so what's a boy to do? Mir was just starting with a Chassidish presence at the time (this was close to 20 years ago) and he decided to join.

He absolutely thrived in the Mir, loved it, and Mir got a Chassidish/heimish Rosh Chaburah he became close to. About a year later, a shidduch was suggested to him there....my amazing SIL. Her father was a mashgiach in Yeshiva A - uh huh - the yeshiva that refused to accept him.

At my brother's Shabbos Sheva Brochos, his MIL told us that she feared that no one would be good enough for my SIL, who was the apple of her father's eye...when my brother was suggested, they heard really nice things about him, and his FIL did not know him personally, so he just took what they heard at face value and decided it sounded right for SIL..... Had my brother learned in that yeshiva, well, the shidduch might never have happened.

Shidduchim are from Hashem. He orchestrates things in ways we can never imagine. You do what's good for your son, and leave his Shidduch to Hashem. It's Kasha K'krias Yam Suf, so we should never think WE are the ones who have to manipulate things. In learning, let your son follow thru with going somewhere he feels he can thrive. Let him personally consult with Daas Torah to guide him there. At the same time, let him address whatever is bothering him and causing him unhappiness. Leave the rest to Hashem.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 4:50 pm

amother wrote:

Yes he does need fulfilment. My DS did not enjoy learning at all at 16 either. He was in a small Yeshiva. He is very good with his hands.
From a young age enjoyed woodwork . We let him fix things around the house (even when the end result was worse. He got better) .
He enjoyed so many other things besides learning & felt accomplished there. This is surrounded by older & younger brothers who are top learners. And you know something? His brothers look upto him.
We have another younger boy with similar challenges & we aren’t worried. We focus on emotional health & Hashem takes care of shidduchim.