S/o chareidi education - getting thrown out for challenging

amother

Mustard

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 8:53 pm

A number of posters on the other thread mentioned that they knew individuals thrown out of the chareidi school system for asking challenging questions. Personally, I found the opposite to be true. The few teachers I attempted to challenge (with the exception of one) were very patient and spent plenty of their personal, unpaid time explaining and teaching until I had no questions. There was even one teacher with whom I developed a personal relationship as a result of all our discussions and am in touch with until today.
If you went through the chareidi/bais Yaakov system did you find that questions were discouraged? That you were considered problematic for asking? I’m just wondering what percentage of people had experiences similar to that of the other thread and what percentage had similar to mine

naturalmom5

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 9:19 pm

amother wrote:

OP I am going to speculate your school was either Chabad or OOT...

amother

Emerald

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 9:29 pm

My daughter's BY teacher told the class that any clothing with words printed anywhere were inappropriate and should never be worn. Their school handbook mandates that the only sweater that students may wear in school is one with the school logo, and a student wearing any other sweater is subject to demerits for uniform violations. When my daughter asked about this and other questions she had, the teacher became very annoyed with her and started giving her a difficult time in general.

shoshanim999

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 9:44 pm

Please keep in mind that here on social media you can at best get one side of the story and at worst get a complete misrepresentation of the facts. It's very easy for a rebellious and disrespectful student to say that she was kicked out for asking honest difficult questions. I think in most instances a rebbe or teacher would be receptive to difficult questions. There is a time and place for everything and if the question is asked in a respectful way I think an answer would usually be offered. On the other hand if a question is really asked to mock or create letzanis, I don't think that question would be entertained. Naturally when a student is kicked out for the latter, they claim they were just asking an innocent question.

amother

Emerald

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 10:36 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

I posted above about my daughter whose teacher gave her a difficult time. My daughter isn't a "troublemaker" at all. She nearly always followed school rules (very occasionally late to school in the mornings), followed uniform codes, was respectful of her teachers and well-liked by others, and an excellent student. In fact my daughter's new school wanted to speak to her principal, who told us that she'd give them a good recommendation but that she'd be sorry to see my daughter go and that my daughter was welcome to return if she wanted. It was really more this one teacher who couldn't handle any questions and took it out on my daughter.

Her teachers at her new school, not a BY, had no problem answering her questions.

shshsh

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 11:23 pm

Definitely questions are not encouraged... which is a serious shame because the Torah has answers to all of our questions. All it would take from a teacher would be “wow, that’s an excellent question. I don’t have the answer but let me try to find someone that does and get back to you on this.”

However, as another poster said... often the students asking the challenging questions are the ones that aren’t looking for answers, but want to create questions in the heads of those around them. In a case like that, the above would be met with scorn and the teacher would have to find another (less kind) way to address the situation.

Still... I don’t think it warrants expulsion.

DrMom

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 11:30 pm

amother wrote:

I was under the impression that the OP was referring to deep theological questions, not questioning a straightforward dress code rule.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Sep 19 2018, 11:39 pm

I was one of those people who got "pushed out". To all those saying they think it's all just troublemakers, can you please name the yeshivish or chassidish (non-lubavitch) school you went to in Brooklyn, New York that as a rule encouraged you to ask questions? If you didn't go to one, then maybe think twice before offering your opinion on what other girls' experience was.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:15 am

Op here. I went to a bais Yaakov in Brooklyn - not oot and not chabad. I did mention with the exception of one teacher - I had one teacher who was rude and nasty and I actually confronted her about it - her response was that she needed to respond strongly in front of a class because I was challenging basic hashkafos. I answered honestly and let her know that I didn’t even want to hear an answer from her by then, would get my answers elsewhere but let her know that it was an innocent question and I was very hurt. But she was the exception not the rule. It wasn’t a school policy of allow questions. But on an individual level I had about 3 other teachers who I questioned over the years - they either responded or replied that they don’t have answers, spoke to others to get the answers and then got back to me. Like I said, there is one teacher I’m in touch with until today - who called to “see how I’m doing” after graduation and encouraged me to keep asking (not directly, just checked in for the first 3 times until I felt she was sincere and felt comfortable reaching out to her after that) . But apparently I am the minority here.

amother

Orange

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:58 am

My experience is that teachers will give over what they know willingly. They have no problems answering questions they know the answers to.

The problem becomes when brilliant students ask questions that stump the teachers and they feel threatened. It is easier to blame the girl for being chutzpahdik than to admit you don't know.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 3:13 am

So apparently it all boils down to which teacher was approached. It’s not school policy in either direction. Some individuals are meant to be teaching and do it because they enjoy it.Others do it for the prestige/schedule/position of authority. The first category exists and is happy and willing to answer all questions. The second feels threatened and will turn you away/make you want to leave. But it’s not based on school policies and schools aren’t to blame.

Ruchel

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 3:29 am

You will have good and bad teachers - people ! - everywhere.
My English teacher in middle school (which Grade? hmmm) hated me because I pointed that stuff she didn't notice/know. That was public school. I would not have stopped school but shecould have made me hate English!
My kids read science books for fun and are used to us answering/looking up and my husband supplements them on some courses because he wants or they ask. They can have interesting questions and stuff, and being in charedi school, their teachers come from all backgrounds, from the most diplomes to... not - and BH for now we haven't had ONE teacher who had problems answering or even saying "I don't know, will look it up". Actually we've been told their curiosity is good... My son's moreh from last year says he is a constant "student" himself. Kodesh teacher, no 'French' degree and certainly no psychology degree. It was similar in their previous school. I wish I had had my children's charedi teachers lol. But again not saying I was PUNISHED for questions either. I once taught a community school and one kid was really challenging, she was gifted and bored and turned vicious. Maybe people didn't answer her questions?

amother

Emerald

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 6:30 am

DrMom wrote:

I was under the impression that the OP was referring to deep theological questions, not questioning a straightforward dress code rule.

My daughter wasn't really questioning the dress code. The teacher told the girls that any clothing with words was inherently un-tziusdig and should never be worn at any time. My daughter had no problem with wearing the school cardigan. She was asking why the teacher was claiming that it was always wrong to wear clothing with words when the school uniform included words. So she was questioning the teacher's "tznius rules".

I don't think my daughter asked her deep theological questions at school, but she sometimes asked those questions at home. Maybe she sensed they wouldn't be appreciated at school?

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 6:59 am

amother wrote:

I'm going to assume that you switched your daughter to a new school for a variety of reasons, not one annoying teacher.

DD had one teacher in school who was ultra-RW, the type that made blanket statements that are not necessarily Halacha but her own personal hashkafa.

I don't consider this teacher to be representative of the whole school. I also talk to my girls about things she says, and clarify to them what our family's personal Hashkafa is on the subject.

I tell my girls that it's good to have a teacher like that, so you get a really broad viewpoint on alot of things - prepares you for life, you will encounter such people. It's good that she says what she says, and that we discuss it at home.

I wouldn't switch my girls out of a great school just because of her.

leah233

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 7:16 am

amother wrote:

I had plenty of questions as a teenager. Not every teacher gave good answers but no one ever gave me a hard time for asking them. (At least one well meaning teacher did tell me that it isn't good for me to be such a philosopher)

However, there is a big difference between asking a question and challenging. Those who ask questions want answers. Those who challenge don't necessarily want them. Frequently they are just looking for a fight/ to make their point. If a girl if asking too many challenging questions and the school doesn't feel she is looking for an answer anyway I understand them telling her to go to a school better suited to her.

This has nothing to do with BY. Most societies won't keep a member who is always disturbing meetings with adversarial questions.

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 20 2018, 7:25 am

Also want to say - I never had deep theological questions, but as a teen, I questioned the whole Kollel system, and the concept of women working to support husbands. I grew up JPF with a father who worked to support the family AND was very much Kovea Itim, and learned a whole lot more than lots of Kollel men. I also have a nurturing personality, and I felt that as a mother I'd want to be a SAHM.

I went to a somewhat more middle-of-the-road BY, so I didn't feel like my BY shoved Kollel down our throats to the extent of some posters here. But there definitely were one or two teachers who did. I remember one in particular, and I argued with her about sending babies to babysitters being "worth it" for a husband learning in Kollel. She called me chutzpadik and sent me out of the room.

But no one kicked me out of school or anything, nothing happened at all. I just developed a distaste for that particular teacher (hasn't abated...I happen to meet her at some family Simchos of a particular relative, and I keep my distance when I can. B"H for large rooms....) and learned to keep my head down in her class.

In seminary, my principal/Rebbetzin was much more open to questions, and I approached her often after class, and argued all my questions with her quite thoroughly. And interestingly enough - married DH who learns in Kollel, and I did send my kids to babysitters, though my approach was to minimize this as much as possible (DH was able to watch them sometimes, etc....). And I work from home, which allows me to be something of a SAHM here and there. And I still question certain aspects of the Kollel system....and my personal view is that it has certain huge benefits that are worth compromising other goals for, but only to some extent, and it shouldn't be pushed on anyone.