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-> Interesting Discussions
iyar
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 Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:11 pm
| amother wrote: | | iyar do you listen to Esther Wein's shiurim? (she talks about the 'curtain' thing a lot) |
No.
Maybe I should?
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amother
Navy
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:19 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Maybe your approach would work for some but not for me. I don't just want to be marking my time here till 120, I want tools that will make me feel positive along the way, regardless of whether the answers to my tefillos are obvious yeses or not. |
I completely understand. In fact, I think most people do believe that hashem has a special relationship with them and in some way we can rely and depend on him because of that relationship. The problem is that some people want concrete facts. Is the life span in Brooklyn and lakewood where people are davening asking hashem for health and life longer than in Wyoming and Nebraska where nobody davens? How should we explain this? We daven, cry, fast, and beg hashem and the results really seem to be exactly the same for those who don't.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:21 pm
| amother wrote: | | I completely understand. In fact, I think most people do believe that hashem has a special relationship with them and in some way we can rely and depend on him because of that relationship. The problem is that some people want concrete facts. Is the life span in Brooklyn and lakewood where people are davening asking hashem for health and life longer than in Wyoming and Nebraska where nobody davens? How should we explain this? We daven, cry, fast, and beg hashem and the results really seem to be exactly the same for those who don't. |
There are studies, but I don't know if there are any like you describe.
Rabbi Tatz talks about belief. He says that we can't use the word proof. It's like someone looking into a medical specialist. You do a lot of research and feel 98.999% comfortable with the decision (because there will always be unknowns).
At some point, we - pardon the cliche but cliches and the trite are often true - have to let go and let G-d.
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amother
Amethyst
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:37 pm
Davening is building a connection to Hashem and saying that He is everything and in control of everything. We should always ask for help from Hashem to do our roles in life and to send us the best for us. Since we don't know what is the best for us, it is not best to daven for specifics and then be upset if we don't get it. We have no way of knowing if what we wanted would be good for us at all. Even something like davening for children. Our role/tikkun in life may be to be happy and fulfilled without. Same with a spouse or happy marriage. We are always getting the roles that make our neshamot evened out from previous life's mistakes. For instance, if we came down to this world another time to have a life with difficult kids, then we should know Hashem only gives us what is good for us. With easy kids we would never have filled that role needed for our neshama. When our neshama is complete and perfect, we can be close to Hashem which is the greatest pleasure. Be careful not to only wish for pleasures for yourself. This world is not meant to be easy for everyone. If something is easy for you, that just means it wasn't the thing you were sent down here for. Appreciate your role in life and your special challenges.
We can daven for others though. We need to. With as many tears as we would shed for ourselves. And we can daven that Hashem help us get through our roles. We can imagine we are holding His hand as we go through our difficulties. We can embrace each suffering in this world as one step closer to our fixed and perfected neshamot. I got through my last surgery like that. Holding His hand and embracing the pain and embarrassment as I pictured my soul getting better. Pain and suffering isn't "bad" really. We can daven that it should be a little easier for us and that we can't do it alone, we need Him. That Hashem should help us be stronger and see the good easier. But if we daven that it should totally go away, we might be ruining it for ourselves. Our neshamot chose this life. If we are poor, we were meant to be in that circumstance. Our soul knew it would help perfect itself only by being poor. Daven for a bit of help when you feel desperate if you want but don't daven to be rich. If suddenly you do become rich, that isn't just a gift, it is also a huge test. I don't know if what I am writing is coming across well. It really is about looking at life at the bigger picture. Of our soul's whole travelling process through many lives. This current life is gone in the blink of the eye. Don't get too involved in mourning things you think should be different and appreciate the challenges you have before your chance to learn from them are gone.
What helps with our tears of prayer is real sacrifice. Pick something that has always been difficult for you to do in the best way you know you should and decide you are now changing and doing this thing as best you can only for Hashem. You give that to Him and it will improve your life. You must do it without expecting something in return because you may never notice what has changed for better in your life. Instead of deserving to die, you may be upgraded to a broken bone. That is such a big chessed but if you are just upset at your bad "luck" of a broken bone, you will never see the chessed. If you don't fully believe that whatever Hashem does for you is the best, you won't be able to see His chessed.
Take on a mitzvah that previously you never thought you could do because it was outside your comfort zone. I started doing taharot and saw lots of bracha. Until I did it, I never thought I could. It changed me for the better and maybe that's why I was able to see the bracha. Decide on whatever works for you. I decided to not criticize my dh about something that I always did before. It was between him and Hashem and I stopped mentioning it. Slowly, my dh grew in his own way and is much stronger on his own. My criticism wasn't effective anyway. We can try to do small things and Hashem helps us with going the whole way. We can daven for help in that and will always see help when it is for spiritual things.
Do mitzvot with joy. Get out of the rut of doing things because you've always done them or because you are afraid of punishment for not doing them. Learn more about them and something meaningful that you never knew before. This year, I learned about the sukkah being a taste of gan eden and for the first time, I really felt it and had a hard time leaving. I never experienced a Sukkot like it before. By changing your perspective on life, you eliminate the feeling you need to daven for things to be different and you are more satisfied with the way things have been given to you.
I see constant miracles in my life. Crazy miracles that I would never believe myself. I think it takes a certain eye to see it as that. My outlook has changed over the years and so have my miracles. I can see Hashem's hand in things that I was never open to before. Things are obvious to me now that were hidden before. It's all about emunah. If you don't believe, you won't see anything. If you truly believe nothing Hashem does is bad, there's very little change in your own life to daven for. Daven for others to be brought closer to Hashem and their eyes to be opened.
I do think you can train children to see Hashem as their one to turn to. My daughter asked for something really big from Hashem that was totally out of this world, unreasonable and almost impossible and suddenly got it a few weeks later. I told her that Hashem loves her and her davening and since she has a strong connection to Hashem, she should daven really hard for Moshaich because she may bring him faster. We have power in our davening, for sure. It will help something, sometime. Your grandchildren may benefit. Or 50 years later, it could be realized. We just don't know what is going on behind the scenes so it is impossible to say our davening didn't help.
I keep thinking of erasing this and minding my own business but maybe there's someone who wants to read this and is ready for their change.
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wantavaca
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 6:32 pm
I am going through something heart wrenching and tragic right now. I have davened and cried my eyes out for years to prevent this but alas, Hashem wants it to be so....
however, now in the midst of all my suffering, whenever I ask for something to help ease my pain, hashem sends it! I have never in my life seen such miracles on a daily basis!! sometimes ill just express my desire to myself and it will show up for me. And it has been happening quite soon after my request.
Just as an example, I asked hashem to bring me someone to talk to who is in a similar boat so I can have support and not feel so alone. A few days later I met someone in a therapists waiting room and we started chatting (when does that ever happen???) and we realized that our situations have a lot of similarities and not only that but she has been living on my block for a few years! we became good friends and she provides me with an unbelievable amount of support and hope.
this is one of many miracles that have happened to me in the past few months. I am truly humbled. look for yad hashem and you will find unbelievable evidence in your every day lives!
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dankbar
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 7:05 pm
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Amethyst thanks for nice explanation
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Cheiny
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 9:03 pm
| amother wrote: | | And it's not just about connecting and helping with the relationship with hashem. Real proof davening helps us achieve the blessings such as life, health, and shalom bayis that we ask for. |
There’s no such proof. We don’t always see an immediate answer to our tefillot. Hashem doesn’t work that way and we aren’t privy to all His ways. Like the saying goes, “For those who don’t believe, there are no answers. For those who do believe, there are no questions.”
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zaq
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 9:21 pm
| Cheiny wrote: | | For those who don’t believe, there are no answers. For those who do believe, there are no questions.” |
Too cleverly pat. Nice rhythm and fits well on a coffee mug but simply not true. Believing doesn’t mean having no questions. Believers have questions, but to them, lacking the answers isn’t an obstacle.
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zaq
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 9:23 pm
| Cheiny wrote: | | For those who don’t believe, there are no answers. For those who do believe, there are no questions.” |
Too cleverly pat. Nice rhythm and fits well on a coffee mug but simply not true. Believing doesn’t mean having no questions. Believers have questions, but to them, lacking the answers isn’t an obstacle. To a non-believer, it is.
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amother
Navy
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 9:45 pm
| amother wrote: | Davening is building a connection to Hashem and saying that He is everything and in control of everything. We should always ask for help from Hashem to do our roles in life and to send us the best for us. Since we don't know what is the best for us, it is not best to daven for specifics and then be upset if we don't get it. We have no way of knowing if what we wanted would be good for us at all. Even something like davening for children. Our role/tikkun in life may be to be happy and fulfilled without. Same with a spouse or happy marriage. We are always getting the roles that make our neshamot evened out from previous life's mistakes. For instance, if we came down to this world another time to have a life with difficult kids, then we should know Hashem only gives us what is good for us. With easy kids we would never have filled that role needed for our neshama. When our neshama is complete and perfect, we can be close to Hashem which is the greatest pleasure. Be careful not to only wish for pleasures for yourself. This world is not meant to be easy for everyone. If something is easy for you, that just means it wasn't the thing you were sent down here for. Appreciate your role in life and your special challenges.
We can daven for others though. We need to. With as many tears as we would shed for ourselves. And we can daven that Hashem help us get through our roles. We can imagine we are holding His hand as we go through our difficulties. We can embrace each suffering in this world as one step closer to our fixed and perfected neshamot. I got through my last surgery like that. Holding His hand and embracing the pain and embarrassment as I pictured my soul getting better. Pain and suffering isn't "bad" really. We can daven that it should be a little easier for us and that we can't do it alone, we need Him. That Hashem should help us be stronger and see the good easier. But if we daven that it should totally go away, we might be ruining it for ourselves. Our neshamot chose this life. If we are poor, we were meant to be in that circumstance. Our soul knew it would help perfect itself only by being poor. Daven for a bit of help when you feel desperate if you want but don't daven to be rich. If suddenly you do become rich, that isn't just a gift, it is also a huge test. I don't know if what I am writing is coming across well. It really is about looking at life at the bigger picture. Of our soul's whole travelling process through many lives. This current life is gone in the blink of the eye. Don't get too involved in mourning things you think should be different and appreciate the challenges you have before your chance to learn from them are gone.
What helps with our tears of prayer is real sacrifice. Pick something that has always been difficult for you to do in the best way you know you should and decide you are now changing and doing this thing as best you can only for Hashem. You give that to Him and it will improve your life. You must do it without expecting something in return because you may never notice what has changed for better in your life. Instead of deserving to die, you may be upgraded to a broken bone. That is such a big chessed but if you are just upset at your bad "luck" of a broken bone, you will never see the chessed. If you don't fully believe that whatever Hashem does for you is the best, you won't be able to see His chessed.
Take on a mitzvah that previously you never thought you could do because it was outside your comfort zone. I started doing taharot and saw lots of bracha. Until I did it, I never thought I could. It changed me for the better and maybe that's why I was able to see the bracha. Decide on whatever works for you. I decided to not criticize my dh about something that I always did before. It was between him and Hashem and I stopped mentioning it. Slowly, my dh grew in his own way and is much stronger on his own. My criticism wasn't effective anyway. We can try to do small things and Hashem helps us with going the whole way. We can daven for help in that and will always see help when it is for spiritual things.
Do mitzvot with joy. Get out of the rut of doing things because you've always done them or because you are afraid of punishment for not doing them. Learn more about them and something meaningful that you never knew before. This year, I learned about the sukkah being a taste of gan eden and for the first time, I really felt it and had a hard time leaving. I never experienced a Sukkot like it before. By changing your perspective on life, you eliminate the feeling you need to daven for things to be different and you are more satisfied with the way things have been given to you.
I see constant miracles in my life. Crazy miracles that I would never believe myself. I think it takes a certain eye to see it as that. My outlook has changed over the years and so have my miracles. I can see Hashem's hand in things that I was never open to before. Things are obvious to me now that were hidden before. It's all about emunah. If you don't believe, you won't see anything. If you truly believe nothing Hashem does is bad, there's very little change in your own life to daven for. Daven for others to be brought closer to Hashem and their eyes to be opened.
I do think you can train children to see Hashem as their one to turn to. My daughter asked for something really big from Hashem that was totally out of this world, unreasonable and almost impossible and suddenly got it a few weeks later. I told her that Hashem loves her and her davening and since she has a strong connection to Hashem, she should daven really hard for Moshaich because she may bring him faster. We have power in our davening, for sure. It will help something, sometime. Your grandchildren may benefit. Or 50 years later, it could be realized. We just don't know what is going on behind the scenes so it is impossible to say our davening didn't help.
I keep thinking of erasing this and minding my own business but maybe there's someone who wants to read this and is ready for their change. |
I think the first part of what you wrote is very inaccurate although I've heard it many times. You say we shouldn't daven for anything specific because it might not be good for us. Now lets talk reality. We are CONSTANTLY davening for specifics. Who didn't have in mind these past few weeks for good children, healthy children, parnassah, shidduchim, and shalom bayis? Who doesn't ask for brochos from gedolim or try a segulah for an older single or bake challah for a choleh? Why is it necessary to pretend that we shouldn't and don't ask hashem for very specific things when we so clearly do?
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amother
Sapphire
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 10:08 pm
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you can ask for the right shidduch, in the right time ....but not the shidduch to this prospect must happen because we dont know which one is the right one. I know a family that went to rebbe to poil that the shidduch with said girl must happen. it did but couple of years later she died from cancer. I know a mom who begged for her son to stay alive after car crash & son in coma....he did, but in veg state. I know family who had to pay for state large sum of money after audit....he went to beg rebbe that he should have to pay zero....it was reappealed went down to zero but right after that lost 2 children.....so do we know? do we know whats best for us? we can daven Hashem should do whats best for us but not einreisen.....that this & this must happen
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amother
Emerald
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 10:19 pm
| amother wrote: | Davening is building a connection to Hashem and saying that He is everything and in control of everything. We should always ask for help from Hashem to do our roles in life and to send us the best for us. Since we don't know what is the best for us, it is not best to daven for specifics and then be upset if we don't get it. We have no way of knowing if what we wanted would be good for us at all. Even something like davening for children. Our role/tikkun in life may be to be happy and fulfilled without. Same with a spouse or happy marriage. We are always getting the roles that make our neshamot evened out from previous life's mistakes. For instance, if we came down to this world another time to have a life with difficult kids, then we should know Hashem only gives us what is good for us. With easy kids we would never have filled that role needed for our neshama. When our neshama is complete and perfect, we can be close to Hashem which is the greatest pleasure. Be careful not to only wish for pleasures for yourself. This world is not meant to be easy for everyone. If something is easy for you, that just means it wasn't the thing you were sent down here for. Appreciate your role in life and your special challenges.
What helps with our tears of prayer is real sacrifice. Pick something that has always been difficult for you to do in the best way you know you should and decide you are now changing and doing this thing as best you can only for Hashem. You give that to Him and it will improve your life. You must do it without expecting something in return because you may never notice what has changed for better in your life. Instead of deserving to die, you may be upgraded to a broken bone. That is such a big chessed but if you are just upset at your bad "luck" of a broken bone, you will never see the chessed. If you don't fully believe that whatever Hashem does for you is the best, you won't be able to see His chessed.
Take on a mitzvah that previously you never thought you could do because it was outside your comfort zone. I started doing taharot and saw lots of bracha. Until I did it, I never thought I could. It changed me for the better and maybe that's why I was able to see the bracha. Decide on whatever works for you. I decided to not criticize my dh about something that I always did before. It was between him and Hashem and I stopped mentioning it. Slowly, my dh grew in his own way and is much stronger on his own. My criticism wasn't effective anyway. We can try to do small things and Hashem helps us with going the whole way. We can daven for help in that and will always see help when it is for spiritual things.
Do mitzvot with joy. Get out of the rut of doing things because you've always done them or because you are afraid of punishment for not doing them. Learn more about them and something meaningful that you never knew before. This year, I learned about the sukkah being a taste of gan eden and for the first time, I really felt it and had a hard time leaving. I never experienced a Sukkot like it before. By changing your perspective on life, you eliminate the feeling you need to daven for things to be different and you are more satisfied with the way things have been given to you.
I see constant miracles in my life. Crazy miracles that I would never believe myself. I think it takes a certain eye to see it as that. My outlook has changed over the years and so have my miracles. I can see Hashem's hand in things that I was never open to before. Things are obvious to me now that were hidden before. It's all about emunah. If you don't believe, you won't see anything. If you truly believe nothing Hashem does is bad, there's very little change in your own life to daven for. Daven for others to be brought closer to Hashem and their eyes to be opened.
I do think you can train children to see Hashem as their one to turn to. My daughter asked for something really big from Hashem that was totally out of this world, unreasonable and almost impossible and suddenly got it a few weeks later. I told her that Hashem loves her and her davening and since she has a strong connection to Hashem, she should daven really hard for Moshaich because she may bring him faster. We have power in our davening, for sure. It will help something, sometime. Your grandchildren may benefit. Or 50 years later, it could be realized. We just don't know what is going on behind the scenes so it is impossible to say our davening didn't help.
I keep thinking of erasing this and minding my own business but maybe there's someone who wants to read this and is ready for their change. |
When I first started reading this, I was appreciating the new insights that I may not have seen "all together" but I don't agree with you saying not to daven for specifics as many rabbis told us in shiurim to talk to hashem and daven for anything, specifically for what WE WANT.
Also, while we are supposed to daven for specific things we want, if we don't get them, we are supposed to say "this is for the best, hashem wants us to be in this situation" and we are "supposed to find the good in it". But, I am having a hard time "finding the good " in some hard situations. Like, what is "good" about not being able to see or move well such that a
young person relies on aides to help. But, those aides are nasty and dont want to help, dont want to do what they are paid to do, so the young person who is disabled feels as if they will fall instead of being helped.... You talk with such certainty about finding the good in every situation so I want to know the good in this situation. I think you write about it as if it is so simple but it is not. Please tell me should I tell my crying friend "it is good that you dont have children bec it is not your role"? No, that would be insensitive to her feelings especially since the torah commands the men to have children so how could it be "not her role". What is the good in infertility? What is the good in having no money so the heat is turned off and then catching pneumonia ??
Yes, I agree we are supposed to see the good in our situation while we can still daven to change it but you make it so simple, so I need "help" with seeing the "good" in the above situations.
I am always davening to Hashem to help me manage, to help me with x y z, to give me a b c.... but if I don't get it I know I must "deal" with it, but some situations its almost impossible for us humans to "see the good".
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amother
Navy
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 10:39 pm
| amother wrote: | | you can ask for the right shidduch, in the right time ....but not the shidduch to this prospect must happen because we dont know which one is the right one. I know a family that went to rebbe to poil that the shidduch with said girl must happen. it did but couple of years later she died from cancer. I know a mom who begged for her son to stay alive after car crash & son in coma....he did, but in veg state. I know family who had to pay for state large sum of money after audit....he went to beg rebbe that he should have to pay zero....it was reappealed went down to zero but right after that lost 2 children.....so do we know? do we know whats best for us? we can daven Hashem should do whats best for us but not einreisen.....that this & this must happen |
I'm not understanding why you feel the need to pretend that you and everyone else don't ask hashem for specifics. Did Moshe rabbanu daven specifically to enter eretz yisroel? Did Chana daven specifically for children? Do you not daven for health and parnassa? If your child would need a shidduch would you not daven specifically for a shidduch? When you travel, do you say tefilas haderech and ask hashem that your journey be safe or do you just say to hashem that he should do what's best for you and if that means driving off a cliff, so be it. When we bench rosh chodesh each month we have a list of around 10 specific things that we ask hashem to provide and do for us. I don't think there's any reason to pretend that we are such baalei emunah that we have no specific requests of hashem.
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amother
Sapphire
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 10:39 pm
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can I tell u after years of infertility I c now the good why I needed to wait so many years? my child that was born after many years of waiting got diagnosed with cancer. Standard treatment didnt help him. The treatment that helped him was discovered the year he was born. Now I thank Hashem a million times that I had to wait for him so many years. Had he been born earlier & wouldnt have to wait that long for him, they wouldnt have any treatment options for him chas vsholom.
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imorethanamother
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Wed, Oct 03 2018, 11:25 pm
| amother wrote: | | iyar do you listen to Esther Wein's shiurim? (she talks about the 'curtain' thing a lot) |
She's a very good speaker. I definitely second that recommendation.
OP, I think there's no proof that tefilah helps. And there's also no proof that tefilah DOESN'T help. I mean, look at Chana. Her tefilah is literally the blueprint for our current prayer model. And yet, she wasn't answered for decades. She didn't have children for years, then had her husband marry someone else, watched that woman have ten children, and then even her husband gave up. Take a snapshot anytime during those long, long years, and you can say that God doesn't seem to answer tefilot. And yet. . .He did?
Avraham and Sarah prayed for so, so long. Avraham even had all these communications with God himself, and he kept asking how he was going to have a nation if he had no offspring, and there wasn't really a forthcoming answer. The Lubavitcher Rebbe never had children of his own. So many people go through things - none of us go through this world unscathed. Tell your friend, though, that God listens to the broken-hearted, and that tears are never ever wasted. That comforts me - that at my lowest, that's when God listens the most, even though the pain I am going through feels like God has abandoned me and doesn't want to hear from me.
I don't know if that helps anyone, it certainly doesn't help so many of us going through a real, gut-wrenching crisis where you really feel like you're suffering. But sometimes I keep saying my prayers and say, "I don't know if You're listening, but no one else is, so I'll just say it anyway."
As a personal aside, I have prayed for something for so, so long. I'm still praying. And it's honestly praying for a miracle. Some people might argue with me that after nearly two decades of praying, the answer is "no". And yet. . . the older I get, the more I realize that while I won't get what I'm praying for (well, who knows? Hope springs eternal), my difficulty in my life has been mitigated so it's not as painful as it could have been. The suffering of the actual nisayon I received is lightened by small gifts along the way. And I am thankful.
Definitely, if someone is soured on prayer itself, tell them to just talk to God in a dark room. It doesn't have to be long, it doesn't have to have a formal structure, but if at all possible, to:
1) Praise God first for the things you have
2) Thank God for the things you have.
3) Ask for what you want, that you will ultimately use in service to God.
I wish whoever is going through pain and suffering to find relief and comfort.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Oct 04 2018, 4:12 pm
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Can I say that both views are right? That of course we daven for what we think we need to serve Hashem optimally, but that we do it with humility and the understanding that not only don't we write the script but that's a pretty good thing as we don't see the whole picture. (Think of amother a few posts ahead with the child whose refuah was only discovered at that time.)
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Cheiny
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Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:11 pm
| zaq wrote: | | Too cleverly pat. Nice rhythm and fits well on a coffee mug but simply not true. Believing doesn’t mean having no questions. Believers have questions, but to them, lacking the answers isn’t an obstacle. |
No, it’s absolutely try and is the shita held by rabbonim.
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Cheiny
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Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:12 pm
| amother wrote: | | I'm not understanding why you feel the need to pretend that you and everyone else don't ask hashem for specifics. Did Moshe rabbanu daven specifically to enter eretz yisroel? Did Chana daven specifically for children? Do you not daven for health and parnassa? If your child would need a shidduch would you not daven specifically for a shidduch? When you travel, do you say tefilas haderech and ask hashem that your journey be safe or do you just say to hashem that he should do what's best for you and if that means driving off a cliff, so be it. When we bench rosh chodesh each month we have a list of around 10 specific things that we ask hashem to provide and do for us. I don't think there's any reason to pretend that we are such baalei emunah that we have no specific requests of hashem. |
Those are very different from asking that a particular person be the right one.
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Cheiny
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Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:13 pm
| amother wrote: | | can I tell u after years of infertility I c now the good why I needed to wait so many years? my child that was born after many years of waiting got diagnosed with cancer. Standard treatment didnt help him. The treatment that helped him was discovered the year he was born. Now I thank Hashem a million times that I had to wait for him so many years. Had he been born earlier & wouldnt have to wait that long for him, they wouldnt have any treatment options for him chas vsholom. |
B”H you were zoche to see the reason for your pain, and B”H your child got a Yeshua!
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