______ ben/bas mother or father

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amother

Sapphire

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 9:49 am

When do you say what when? I know for a choleh, you say the mother and for an aliya, the father, but what about every other time? Like when I light the candles for shabbos or after the person is niftar, etc?

Anon because I'm very embarrassed I don't know.

edited for spelling error

Ruchel

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 9:59 am

Nothing to be embarrassed of! Rabbis are debating too!
Most of the time niftar is father, but some do mother

Metukah

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 10:00 am

In most mainstream orthodox places the norm is;

Ben/bas father for aliyos and after death.

All other times ben/bas mother.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 10:16 am

So for a bracha, it's mother?

crust

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

So for a bracha, it's mother?

You mean, you are making a bracha l'ilu nishmas?
If s/he is not alive then its ben/bas father.

Or, are you doing it as a zchus for a refuah or yeshuah?
If s/he is alive then its ben/bas mother.

Seas

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 10:37 am

When davening for someone alive it's the mother.

When doing something l'ilu nishmas, or when identifying someone (let's say in a kesubah), it's the father.

amother

Papaya

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 10:56 am

Not to hijack the thread but apropos, I saw in a frum publication a list of names for tehillim and in every name instead of writing Ben/bas as beiz nun or beiz sof they print a quotation mark instead of the beiz. This is not a typo, it’s deliberate. Anyone know why? Is this a chassiddish thing? Kabbalistic? Pious shtick with no basis in Halacha?

Seas

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

Quotation marks, or rather apostrophes are used when letters are dropped off. It's just a shorthand version of ben or bas.

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:00 am

Once heard cause it’s being erased or torn and thrown away. That’s why you don’t write it out.

Ruchel

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:05 am

There are North African Jews, very mainstream, who use mother for niftar.
I also know some people who use ben father unless you're c'v real sick.
It's all normative if that's your custom

amother

Papaya

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:16 am

Seas wrote:

Quotation marks, or rather apostrophes are used when letters are dropped off. It's just a shorthand version of ben or bas.

I’m not so sure. For one thing, why bother? First of all it was definitely quotation marks, not apostrophes, and secondly what’s the point? You save no keystrokes when typing and you save no space in the publication. And why drop the first letter of the word when all other abbreviations drop the final letters?

One of the locals told me that’s how they teach them to do it in school but she had no idea why. It’s not like dropping the final letters of names like Eliyahu or Nesanel to avoid writing letters that spell the name of G-d. In that case saving strokes and ink is a happy fringe benefit but not the point.

There’s got to be a better reason here. As stam an “abbreviation”
it makes no sense, because when typed it’s no abbreviation at all.

amother

Lime

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:26 am

You don't want to throw away a person's name....these papers go go garbage after that

amother

Lime

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:29 am

While sick moms name. After nifter father's name. I know someone who let the spouse know that child went onto a better place...just by staying that child's name changed...

shanie5

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:55 am

amother wrote:

You don't want to throw away a person's name....these papers go go garbage after that

This.

By leaving out a letter of Ben or Bas, you are not writing out the full name, ao the paper can then be tossed out. We try not to toss things with a persons full name written on it. (This I learned in elementary school. )

imasoftov

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 11:57 am

amother wrote:

I have never seen this. I have seen b"r instead of "ben reb".

amother wrote:

You don't want to throw away a person's name....these papers go go garbage after that

Why not? And is it only a person's whole Hebrew name with their mother's or father's that can't be thrown away or do some people put every newspaper in shemos because it contains peoples' name? And perhaps someone in the newspaper did get listed by their Hebrew name, e.g. Avraham ben Yaakov Goldberg makes aliya and goes to the Interior Ministry to make "Ben-Yaakov" his legal family name?

amother

Wheat

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 12:18 pm

But by yizkor isn't it the niftar with his or her's "mother's" name? Or am I wrong?

amother

Lime

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 1:01 pm

No. Yiskor is also with father's name

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 1:29 pm

Rebbi’s don’t throw out the kvit’lech they get from chasidum. The full Hebrew names are written out there.

There is something about it. Don’t know if there is a source of it or not.

mo5

Mon, Oct 29 2018, 4:38 am

amother wrote:

But by yizkor isn't it the niftar with his or her's "mother's" name? Or am I wrong?

Depends on minhag. Nusach Ari does like sefardim and says mothers name

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