I converted to Judaism in Israel, AMA :)

amother

Maroon

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 10:55 am

amother wrote:

When I announced that I was getting married, it was the final straw and they completely severed links with me. I remember being in a wedding dress gemach, and realising that I was the only kallah trying on dresses alone, without any mother, and it was probably my worst low in those years.

I made contact with them when I became pregnant and we slowly rebuilt our relationship. There have been a lot of ups and downs (they don't like my husband and think he's 'extreme') but now at least they've resigned themselves to the reality that this is how things will be. They don't have any interest in learning about Judaism whatsoever, I think they purposefully ignore it so they don't need to deal with it. The most difficult thing for them is living so far away from their only daughter and grandkids. But now I ring them almost every day.

I just want you to know that you’re not the only kallah who tried on dresses without a mother. I grew up in a frum, pro-Israel family, but when I made Aliyah it was too much for my parents. When I got engaged they said they couldn’t pay for my wedding and would just come as guests. I planned and paid for my entire wedding myself. I went to the gown fittings with my roommate. I have a baby who they won’t see because they won’t travel to visit us. I make such an effort and Skype and send photos.

It sounds like you’re an incredible person! Kol hakavod!

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 11:00 am

amother wrote:

Did rabbis need to observe you in the mikva? How does that work?

For the rabbinut conversion - I went into the mikveh and dipped once undressed with the balanit present and then I put on what looked like a very long raincoat which was heavy and stayed down while I was in the water, then the 3 rabbis came into the room, asked me if I was sure I wanted to take upon myself all the mitzvot etc and I dipped again with that coat thing on. They left immediately after my head went under the water. I've heard so many stories about women saying it was humiliating etc - I found it to be very dignified and had no problems whatsoever.

For the conversion with Rav Karelitz it felt quite different. I had already been married for almost 2 years and was pregnant with my second child. I'd been covering my hair all that time and felt quite horrified when I needed to take off my mitpachat. I entered the water, dipped once undressed while the balanit was there, then they spread what I'd describe as a thick plastic covering on the water with a hole where my head poked out. The Rabbis walked in when I was already in the water with my head poking through. When it came to the time I needed to dunk, the balanit whipped off my mitpachat and I put my head under the water. I found that awkward- nobody had seen my hair in years. The rabbis left the minute my head was under the water.

Tbh I was more traumatised by how my baby was dunked (she had to go through the mikveh process too). Basically, the balanit (an elderly Bnei Brak lady) dunked her like you would with a new dish Tongue Out

Put her in the water, let her go under water and snatched her out again. Poor thing was bewildered. I also had to 'remarry' my husband immediately after the mikveh (literally just came out of the water, dressed, got 2 witnesses and used a simple ring my husband had bought that day for 200 NIS). But the second conversion was important for me personally because in Israel Rabbinut conversions are increasingly becoming discredited as 'too easy' and not genuine (they aren't accepted by the Beit Din in London, for example). Most likely because of the influx of non-Jewish Russians as well as 'quickie' conversions in the army harming the Rabbinut's reputation. I don't want my kids to have their Jewishness questioned, or at least want to do everything in my power to reduce the chances of them encountering problems in future

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 11:08 am

InnerMe wrote:

What would you say to someone who wishes to convert?
Are there certain situations where you'd advise against it?

If someone wants to convert, I'd tell them to research is thoroughly, think very carefully whether they will keep all of the mitzvot after the conversion and 'live' Judaism as authentically as possible for a serious amount of time before committing to becoming a Jew. Only by living with a Jewish family did I realise what a pain it was to have a husband who's away from the home so much either praying or learning Torah - it's not easy! Also, it's been very demanding physically and emotionally having so many kids in quick succession (I'm talking about a haredi lifestyle, for others who embrace a different kind of Judaism, their experiences are of course very different). It's also critical that they have a community and support (which they will continue to live in after the conversion)- you can't be Jewish alone and having people there to support you both along the way and afterwards is critical in continuing to live an observant life afterwards.

I'd advise against conversion if someone is trying to fill some kind of emotional void or solve emotional issues or 'escape' their current life. Becoming a Jew doesn't solve all your problems. It makes life much more difficult! But much more meaningful... It's worth it in the end. But it involves a serious journey of not only learning the technicalities of how to do netilat yadayim and pray from a siddur, but also developing a relationship with Hashem.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 1:09 pm

First of all, kol hakavod to you, OP.
But the thing about the second conversion, the giyur le'chumra, makes me wonder...
I also converted here in Israel with the rabbanut, married and we have children. They are still small. We are dati leumi and so is our whole neighborhood.
But sometimes, I wonder if my conversion with the rabbanut will cause the kids trouble in the future.
You obviously thought that this is an issue for your family.
Can I ask why? I mean, did someone, a Rav or anyone else, tell you and recommend it? Do you know people whose children had actual shidduch or other problems with a rabbanut giyur in the background? (I mean, inside Israel, not in London or elsewhere abroad.)
And what about your first child? He/she had to be converted then as well, right? Technically, doesn't that mean that the child is now ben/bat Avraham and no longer your child by halacha? Didn't that bother you?
Did you feel in your heart that the rabbanut giyur wasn't the real thing and the second one was?
Did it change the way you feel about being Jewish or was it just a matter of form?
I'm not sure if I could handle another giyur. It would give me the feeling that everything I did until now, all the mitzvot and tefillot and all my hishtadlut was suddenly without value. It would make me feel that I lost part of my life. Did you ever feel like that?

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 1:56 pm

amother wrote:

Hi! Firstly, great to meet a fellow gioret! I know about a dozen people who also did the Rabbinut giyur and as far as I'm aware they've never had issues with it- but all are dati leumi, I'm not sure it'd be the same story in the charedi world. I think that in general anyone who converted through the army or converted and afterwards openly didn't keep mitzvot (but later became more religious) should seriously consider a giyur l'chumra. Haredi Rabbis I know who work in kiruv even told me openly that when they meet a person who underwent an army conversion and didn't remain observant afterwards, they're hesitant to even bother to bring them back to Judaism because they consider them non jews. My husband did an army conversion and, like the vast majority (if not everyone in his group) he didn't stay religious afterwards at all. He did tshuva and completed a giyur l'chumra before our wedding on the advice of a haredi Rabbi working in kiruv. I was also told by a Rav who is connected to a private haredi Beit Din that in a particular Jerusalem midrasha which helps girls learn for a Rabbinut conversion, the Rav there sends the 'serious ones' for a charedi conversion afterwards.

Re my first child- because it was a giyur l'chumra, she isn't Bat Avraham and is still very much mine (at least I still need to clean up after her Tongue Out

) I felt that the Rabbinut giyur was the real thing- the giyur l'chumra was more for peace of mind. A technicality. And the Rabbanim in the charedi Beit Din even said themselves that since I kept mitzvot after my previous conversion, it still is completely legit, but they can give me their stamp of approval if it's important to me. I didn't feel I lost anything- I was Jewish before, and I continued to be Jewish after the giyur l'chumra. I just feel there wouldn't be a need for a giyur l'chumra if the Rabbinut wasn't connected to the Israeli government and didn't have to sacrifice its values because a huge aliyah of Russian non-Jews is a liability they need to 'take care of' at the expense of genuine conversion.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 2:30 pm

Hmmm, I actually at first very much wanted an army giyur. Not because it's easier but rather because I was soooo pro-army and wanted everything in my life to be tzahal back then.
In the end, it didn't work out and, B"H, I went the rabbanut route, which looking back, really was the better way. I was continuously observant after my giyur and never stopped keeping the mitzvot in public and in private.
In a way, I'm glad you wrote that the giyur le'chumra was more like an additional stamp of approval and not a replacement of the rabbanut giyur. And of course, it's good to know that your daughter is still your daughter.
I think if there are no drastic changes of the situation in Israel, I'll continue my life the way it is. As you also wrote, dati leumi people seem to be more laid back about conversions and dh and I have no close ties to the haredi world.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 2:53 pm

amother wrote:

Hmmm, I actually at first very much wanted an army giyur. Not because it's easier but rather because I was soooo pro-army and wanted everything in my life to be tzahal back then.

Haha yeah, I had this phase too. I blame the influence of a man in uniform lol. In the end I married a career soldier and did my tikkun without needing to enlist Tongue Out

Looking back, I'm glad I didn't serve in the army for various reasons. After some stories my husband told me based on a decade as a career soldier, I hope I'll be able to instill the necessary torah values in my son before/if he joins the army - it can be a very challenging environment for religious people.

But to sum up, in the dati leumi world (and chardal) I found a much greater appreciation for converts and never encountered any kind of prejudice. Ever. People have been amazing. And if anything, if was a bonus to be a convert in shidduchim! Among charedim, 99% of those of whom I've encountered really appreciate and admire converts. But when it comes to marrying into *their* family, that' another kettle of fish... And in a way, I can understand them. It can cause strain in a marriage to deal with non-Jewish inlaws, a very different upbringing and all the issues that entails. I struggle with these problems with my husband and his family-- and we're both converts! But I don't worry- chabad seem to generally have a different outlook to the mainstream charedim and at the end of the day Hashem will help them in finding their bashert

amother

Lavender

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 3:36 pm

amother wrote:

Haha yeah, I had this phase too. I blame the influence of a man in uniform lol. In the end I married a career soldier and did my tikkun without needing to enlist Tongue Out

Well, it was no man in uniform for me - dh finished his army service ages before we met, he's more than a few years older than me. I had to do my own thing. And I did serve in the army, just didn't convert there. I was - and am still - a bit of a hyper-zionist and found to my disappointment that the army has quite a bit of a left wing slant. Today I live in happily a settlement with dh and kids. Problems with non-Jewish family - yes, I have that, too. My parents also think that we're religious extremists and my mother never misses an opportunity to tell me that we live like in the middle ages and that I look like a kind of Muslim with my mitpachat. When we went abroad to visit them, I put on a sheitel to avoid conflict. My mother's comment then: "Now you look like a cancer patient after chemotherapy!" There's no pleasing some... dh, who was born Jewish, does his best to get along with his non-Jewish in-laws, only, they never give him a fair chance. My mother, when visiting us, got furious every single time he went to shul. She finds it outrageous that someone would go to pray 3 times a day.

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 10:36 pm

Hi OP, I'm another giyores who did a Rabbanut conversion, then went to R' Nissim Karelitz's beis din.

I know what you mean about that feeling you had growing up, that need to search. I wasn't raised Catholic like you, but very religious Xtian, and spent a lot of years searching for the emes. It's nice to "meet" someone who knows that feeling. Most of the people in the chareidi community I live in are FFBs who can't relate.

Are you surprised by FFBs who see Yiddishkeit as, to use the word some posters said on this thread, "restrictive?" Do you get involved helping be mekarev krovim? If so, how? (This is something I've been thinking about a lot now that I'm hitting middle age. There are a lot of FFBs who haven't really connected to HKBH in a way they can feel yet. I wish I could figure out how to help people taste the sweetness of mitzvos and the joy of connecting to Hashem...but how can FFBs be reached? Kiruvy type programs aren't going to work. What might?)

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 06 2018, 1:39 am

amother wrote:

Are you surprised by FFBs who see Yiddishkeit as, to use the word some posters said on this thread, "restrictive?" Do you get involved helping be mekarev krovim? If so, how? (This is something I've been thinking about a lot now that I'm hitting middle age. There are a lot of FFBs who haven't really connected to HKBH in a way they can feel yet. I wish I could figure out how to help people taste the sweetness of mitzvos and the joy of connecting to Hashem...but how can FFBs be reached? Kiruvy type programs aren't going to work. What might?)

Great question- regarding FFBs who see Yiddishkeit as "restrictive"- it doesn't surprise me at all. As one FFB (who went OTD) described it, "it's like a bunch of OCD rules made up by men". While I obviously don't agree with her, I can certainly understand it. Especially since many FFBs don't have the spiritual journey a person converting (or doing tshuva) embark upon. They do it because this is how it's done in their family. Perhaps they've never questioned 'why?' or explored the deeper meaning of their actions. Chassidut played an important role for me in developing a relationship with Hashem and keeping the initial spark which drew me to Judaism alive. It's rather like marriage- it's a relationship which demands constant change, growth and investment.

And a huge YES for kiruv! I'd even say that it's one of the primary reasons Hashem put converts on this earth- to show other Jews how much people are willing to work, suffer and endure so that they can have something they often take for granted. Since we're chabadnikim, we have a lot of big shabbat meals where we invite both religious friends (90% who did tshuva at some stage) as well as neighbours, acquaintances and people we just encountered in day to day life who aren't yet religious. Aside from this, I've spoken about my conversion in countless places, from my past (Israeli) university to ulpanot, and always have plans for shavuot Tongue Out

There's a specific kiruv organisation which works with non-religious students which invites me to a lot of their events to speak. But most 'kiruv' is just random interactions. When I gave birth to my son in Mayanei HaYeshua, I started chatting with a lady in the dining room and the conversation turned to family, which inevitably turned to conversion. Within a few minutes of talking, a dozen haredi ladies had pulled up chairs and were listening in and getting me to repeat what they'd missed. Even the Arab cleaning lady sat down and (I still laugh!) declared "who wants to be a Jew?? It's so hard!!" XD For those familiar with the Israeli mentality, they'll know that striking up random conversations with strangers is a regular occurance, and questions of "what's that accent? Oooh, I didn't know there were Jews in X!" very often turn into an opportunity to do kiruv. I think the key to kiruv for a convert to remember is; it's not about you. Sure, the story of the conversion is mine and a personal experience, but at the end of the day I don't want the take home message to be "wow, she did all that! I could never do that!" -- I want it to be "wow, what can *I* do to be closer to Hashem?"

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 06 2018, 1:49 am

amother wrote:

Is it allowed to have connections with your parents and family

Yes! It was actually my Rav during the conversion process who was the biggest supporter / pusher for maintaining connections with my parents and working towards building a good relationship with them. Judaism isn't a cult which tries to separate people from their biological parents. The parents of converts have a huge zchut in that they brought into this world a special neshama with the potential to be Jewish (and it's the zchut of the convert themselves to actualise this potential) - that's huge! There were many, many times when I felt it would be so much easier to completely cut contact with my parents and not have to deal with the drama and all the heartache, but I'm glad others pushed me to invest and today me and my parents are in a much better place than we were a few years ago. I don't do everything they tell me to do, but I still listen to, love and respect them.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 06 2018, 8:54 am

Reality wrote:

Is your country of origin an anti-semetic country? Are you able to look like an orthodox jew and visit your family?

Most anti-semitism is more so a result of ignorance (there aren't really any Jews there for them to persecute!) But it is most certainly a pro-Palestinian country, which often results in people making anti-semitic statements. When my husband was still a career soldier he was told in advance by the army not to walk around with a kippa there. We only visited once since getting married (and before kids), and it was enough! I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone walk around with a kippa - better to wear a hat - since, like most of Europe, the Muslim population is expanding at a very rapid rate.

Reality wrote:

Is your family anti-semetic?

I wouldn't call them anti-semitic, but they certainly have parroted some anti-semitic ideas in the past (that Jews are wealthy, have disproportionate sway on politics, are stingy with money etc) but overall they're not actually prejudiced against Jews they meet in 'real life'. I blame their Catholic upbringing and the media for their backwardness.

Reality wrote:

Do you have any jewish roots? Or possibility of jewish roots?

No chance. We're Catholic going back many, many generations and quite isolated from anywhere Jews have ever lived. I wish!!