Jewish & secular education VS only jewish education

shalhevet

Sun, Oct 07 2007, 7:12 pm

Rivka wrote:

One needs to give their child the tools to get through life. Today, that means a secular and jewish education. What;s the stupid fight about?
U want to talk about kollel wives? Well I will tell you how they survive.
The husband is in kollel all day, the wife works and gets paid under the table (no taxes for them) and then they claim the dole. This means they get free milk, free housing and on the side they have another business.
So twice a year they can afford to go on holiday.
IS this what you call torah life? I call this a complete chillul Hashem and is outright stealing.
Meanwhile the Jews that got and education (secular) and are working hard to earn a living and paying their taxes and paying their way, do not get one holiday a year. So are you putting down the honest Jew who works here?
Please don't carry your kollel families on a pedestal and claim everything is legal. If they find stealing to be the way they live, they should go get a job.

I am moche this post completely.

Signed: a kolel wife whose business is registered at mas hachnasa (the Israeli Inland Revenue).

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 9:17 am

I dont know about everyone else, but personally I want my son to chose his own future. If he wants to learn in kollel (as long as he can support himself/his family) then I want him to get a good early education to support that. If he wants to be a Dr, lawyer, IT manager, CEO, whatever, I want him to have the education for that as well.

I think a good balance is important between religious and secular studies.

I hate the term 'secular' studies. There is no such thing. it is all G-ds work. Who made science, math, languages, history, art??/ HASHEM DID.

it reminds me of a story I once heard (and only once, so I dont remember from where it came, or the exact details) A great Rabbi learned every day, day in and day out...all he did was learn. never went beyond his own town. One night he has a dream. in the dream he has passed way and he is being asked what he did with his life. He mentions all the things he has learned, all the students he has taught, all the mitzvahs he has kept. When he finishes, he is asked "and what of HaShems wonderous world did you see? Did you see waterfalls, or oceans, or deserts? Did you see unusual animals or different people?"

I think, just like everything else in life, we need to striveto maintain a balance and not decide one thing is more important, becuase in the end, it all works together as part of HaShems universe.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 1:38 pm

Ima2Netanel wrote:

Atali

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 8:30 pm

As far as I'm concerned, I only want my children to learn secular studies to the extent that they will actually need it. Therefore when my children are young, I only want my children to learn Kodesh and basic reading and math skills. If, when they get older, I see that one of them has a particular interest in pursuing a career in a particular secular area, I will encourage him to get enough knowledge to excel in his chosen field. Also, if I have a child who does not want to go into klei kodesh, I will encourage him to get vocational training whether or not he has a particular inclination toward any field. I will also make sure that all of my children have a good understanding of finances so that they can make their own decisions responsibly.

TammyTammy

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 8:39 pm

Rivka wrote:

To be fair, Rivka, while I'm sure that there are some Kollel couples who do this, I don't think that they are the majority, nor do I think that you have evidence to that fact.

Tammy

Imaonwheels

Thu, Oct 11 2007, 12:18 pm

There is one fact being totally ignored.

If a child learns limudei chol only until 1 pm, then his Jewish education will definitely be substandard. There is no choice. Not even the minimum. And the same people who want this truncated education want to add more Chumash, Mishna, Navi, etc. on to the Gemora program. A child who learns limudei kodesh until 1 will have a Torah age of less than BM upon finishing HS. The choice must be made, it is unpopular but true. Here kids know Hebrew and that amt of time is inadequate. How can it be enough in chutz, esp when Hebrew language is not taught seriously.

One of my sons received a 6th grade graduation present of a book written by a man who travels to boys' religious HS (yeshiva tichonit) and gives talks to HS boys. He said he was shocked to find that most did not know why they are dati, why they should lay tefilin. They had conflicts because of the people they met who seemed to be good and moral w/o being dati. It was scary that in what was at that time one of the strongest mamad elementaries the hanhala felt that this book was an appropriate gift.

I have 6 boys from 12-23. They have learned in Maamad, Shas, Zilberman, Morasha style, city Chabad (cheder cheder) and reshet Chabad (compromises for outlying or developing communities). They differ dramtically in level. They also differ dramatically in the number of hours of study and amt of limudei chol. There is no comparison between not only the amt of knowledge but the grasp and ability to integrate their Torah knowledge, to be thinkers within Torah and not just robots. The cheder cheder wins hands down. They also reinforced the yiras shamayim being taught in the home much more thoroughly.

Also, the decision to make sure that the Torah part is sufficient as 1st priority, even at the expense of gashmius sends a lesson of emuna loud and clear. Kids don't do as we say, they do as we do.

If I do not want my child reading stories of murder, infidelity, faulty values and a very immoral society, then what does the fact that they were written by Shakespear change? They remain carriers of supremely non Jewish, and even non moral values.

Before you ask, I am a college grad with, among other things a large concentration of courses in lit and creative writing. I have read much Shakespear, both plays and poetry. BTW, would you assign the Scarlet Letter or Ivanhoe in a frum school?

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 11 2007, 8:34 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

If I do not want my child reading stories of murder, infidelity, faulty values and a very immoral society, then what does the fact that they were written by Shakespear change? They remain carriers of supremely non Jewish, and even non moral values.

Before you ask, I am a college grad with, among other things a large concentration of courses in lit and creative writing. I have read much Shakespear, both plays and poetry. BTW, would you assign the Scarlet Letter or Ivanhoe in a frum school?

First of all, aren't there stories of murder and faulty values in the Torah, and don't we learn from them?

Second of all, why deny any growing mind, even a frum growing mind, the right to experience art (literature, poetry, etc.) in a way that we only can when guided by a knowledgeable teacher? I remember fondly reading some of my favorite books with some of my favorite teachers. Sure, I could have read them on my own, but I learned so much about life and human nature from them, especially with the help of teachers and professors.

This is not in any way to denigrate the value of Torah studies. I just want to give both to my children. I know this is difficult to do, with only so much time in the day, but I have been inspired and moved by so much of what I've read, not to mention that I think that they have enhanced my abilities, first as a professional woman and then as wife and mother.

Ruchel

Fri, Oct 12 2007, 9:03 am

Clarissa wrote:

Imaonwheels wrote:

Me too.
My family is so into studies and books that I can't imagine depriving my children of that. And well Shakespeare or Ivanhoe or even Scarlet Letter is clean. It's hard enough to find good clean books, so just because it mentions adultery or murder doesn't mean I'll skip it - with proper guidance of course.

gryp

Fri, Oct 12 2007, 9:46 am

Quote:

First of all, aren't there stories of murder and faulty values in the Torah, and don't we learn from them?

A) You can't compare some non-Jew's made-up meshugasin to Torah.
B) Torah is from the word "Hora'ah" meaning "lesson" or "teaching." Hashem wants us to learn His specific teachings. Learning Shakespeare would be an interesting mitzvah but it doesn't exist.
C) Every single story in the Torah is explained in many many different levels. What might seem to us at first to be an aveirah can very well be explained completely differently.

Quote:

Second of all, why deny any growing mind, even a frum growing mind, the right to experience art (literature, poetry, etc.) in a way that we only can when guided by a knowledgeable teacher? I remember fondly reading some of my favorite books with some of my favorite teachers. Sure, I could have read them on my own, but I learned so much about life and human nature from them, especially with the help of teachers and professors.

This is not in any way to denigrate the value of Torah studies. I just want to give both to my children. I know this is difficult to do, with only so much time in the day, but I have been inspired and moved by so much of what I've read, not to mention that I think that they have enhanced my abilities, first as a professional woman and then as wife and mother.

I can relate to what you're talking about but it is still at the expense of Torah learning. I am more comfortable denying my kids Shakespeare and Dickens and the famous poetry than denying them a chance to move ahead in learning Torah. Besides, a child's growing mind should be immersed in the ways of Torah and Yiddishkeit and nothing else. Classic literature is not studied for Avodas Hashem in any way.

tzatza

Fri, Oct 12 2007, 1:27 pm

Wow, Motek, you can get really angry!
This whole thread is intersting and pointless at the same time. I don't see how anyone's mind is going to change about the subject at hand. It is all a matter of preference and, more importantly, our life expericens. I became a BT at the age of 20 and I am came here from a country that cannot even be compared in the amount of wolrd literature read with America (no offense!)I read literally tons of high-class books throughout school and University (my major was languages and literature, by the way). If anything, it enhanced my values. Of course, parental and teacher guidance is essential, but it is true with secular and religious. In any case, I truly hear what Clarissa is saying, and it bothers me sincerely when people look down on those who do not "dedicate more time to religous study" (by whoever standard they go).

Imaonwheels

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 11:51 am

To the tools to get through life people: Much of secular education is not 'tools to get through life', it is immersion in a culture very different and often antithetical to Torah. That is if you are not talking about hard science and mathematics, vocational skills or language and communication proficiency. I see on every post people determined, bite down sure that they will not have a child with substandard English while even most of the best Jewish schools produce kids with the inability to read or express themselves in Hebrew. Imagine if we had a school that took all of the kids as far as they could go in Jewish knowledge and yirat shamayim and give them only what they need to make a parnassa at the proper age? That won't happen because the frum community itself would not support it. On one hand are those who have been convinced college is worthwhile even if not necessary because they aren't primitive and on the other are those who fight even shidduch age young people learning a profession. What I see is rabbonim saying things that they don't really expect anyone to listen to and instead of saving face simply make a spectacle of themselves. If schools really felt as they claim they would not give state diplomas and not facilitate the college attendence they claim to be against.