Is living an "authentic life" contrary to "Torah life"

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:49 am

I have an uncle who is one of the top radiologists, for sure in the US, possibly in the world. He is at the forefront of the advancements in radiology and imaging. He developed his own educational tutorial, and goes around the world lecturing.
I have a cousin who is in medical research.
I have a cousin who is in forensic psychology.
I have a cousin who is a leading urologist.

I should add that they are all very much shomer shabbos and shomer torah and mitzvos. Clearly they are not mutually exclusive. I think the reason we don’t see it is because of the lack of emphasis on secular and world knowledge, and doing great things, moreso in the rightwing world.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:56 am

amother wrote:

About women running businesses....well many do....does it affect their family....certainly to some extent!

I had a child, of my business owner friend, by me. He did not stop talking. Told me he's so happy that I'm listening because his parents are too busy to listen to him. Successful to the world.....but not by the opinion of the child, who needed a listening ear!

I'm a partner in a law firm.

And my kids' friends all say that I'm sort of the group mother, looking after not only my own kids, but all of them.

syrima

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:57 am

Rena K

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 11:03 am

OP sounds young, and like many in her generation, does not want to work hard to "have it all". I might be wrong, so apologies if I misread it. Achieving success in both family (what you perceive to be the "torah" ideal), and personal advancement (what you perceive to be "authentic") requires a huge amount of commitment and self-sacrifice. It seems obvious that you want to chose one and not both and are simply wondering if giving up on the family is ok if in turn you will accomplish a lot in the world.

It's unfortunate that we as a society have ended up in this place. We (mine and generation prior to mine) have paved the way for women to get "out there in the world" by working hard and balancing families and success, often in the name of keeping our husbands in kollel, only to give birth to a generation who wants to follow our external success but not have to work as hard to balance the family. It all comes back in the end, as Hashem has given us maternal instincts and has created the family demand on a mother for a reason. Young people nowadays don't realize that the vast opportunities that we have paved for them have made them confused. But it's important to speak to the right people to understand how decisions made when you are young will greatly impact your life in ways you cannot even imagine now.

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 11:09 am

syrima wrote:

Right but are any of them women?

The first female partner ever (of any race or religion) at Davis Polk, a tip-top Biglaw firm, was a frum woman, Lydia Kess. An online bio says she was the second woman ever to make partner at a "Wall Street firm." I think she is FFB, though I'm not certain.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 11:11 am

amother wrote:

You can toss the ultra right culture and then practice torah u'mada and there will be no difference between the two and be torah frum & authentic at the same time.

There are different angles being explore here. There's the frum stuff, and the rest of the world human stuff.
Even secular people find it difficult to have it all.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, Nov 16 2018, 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 11:19 am

syrima wrote:

The beginning of OPs post was not specific to women, only the last paragraph. I answered for Jews collectively, not specifically women.
My reasoning is still the same though, I believe that there is not enough emphasis in secular and world knowledge to encourage our children to pursue such careers in greater numbers.

sarahmalka

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 1:17 pm

OP I don't know where you live or with whom you socialize. In my community alone I can name ten professional frum people making a big difference in their fields, having a career as well as living a Torah life. Men and women. The fields include cancer research, robotics, computer programming, genetics research, ophthalmology, physics, astronomy. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head in the 3 minutes it's taking me to write this post.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 1:47 pm

Maya wrote:

I get what you’re saying, OP.
As much as people want to claim that the Torah allows for making a difference in the world, the reality is that very few religious Jews make it into those arenas. There has to be a reason for that, and it’s not because of our lack of capabilities or ambition.

Some of it is Torah, like not being able to work on Shabbos and all the days of yomim tovim , and some of it is the religious culture.

My opinion is that if someone wants to be a game changer of the kind you mention, he or she would have to compromise on some of the Torah and/or some of the culture.

AGREE! While I don't find the torah in and of itself to be limiting, I think it's more the preconceived notions of society that are. The issue (especially in the chassidish community) is that people who want to do something different than the status quo are frowned upon. I myself am currently working towards a degree in the mental health field and am getting so much backlash from my family for it. While there is value to the system in terms of learning community responsibility and those sorts of things, it can feel extremely stifling to those who dare to be different. For me personally, I have found solace in keeping my family and business lives apart and in making good friends in the professional world so I can feel fulfilled in both aspects.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 2:18 pm

Maya wrote:

But there’s a difference between being in the medical field versus having the availability to be involved in the kind of research that advances medicine. From what I know about research, it seems to be much more involving than being a physician in an office.

What did that have to do with religion though?
A religious person can do this.
(DH does exactly this)

zaq

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 3:07 pm

Maya wrote:

Perhaps, but Ruchy Freier is hardly a game changer in greater society, and also, being a judge is not exactly all consuming or a career that’s not family friendly.

I guess you don’t know much about being a judge. And I think Ruchie is very much a game changer for Chassidish women especially but for Frum women as a whole. Although why does she have to be? Only people who have literally earthshaking careers, like the folks who worked on the Manhattan Project, are worth anything? People who just plain achieve terrific things but don’t make it into the world history curriculum aren’t worth anything?

Yeesh.

zaq

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 3:12 pm

Maya, I’ve reread your posts and come to the sad conclusion that you are a Snob with a capital S. Nobody’s good enough unless they’re a household word all over the world. Well, I’ll tell you: Donald Trump and Kim Kardashian are household words all over the world, and I hold both in utter contempt.

Maya

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 4:30 pm

zaq wrote:

Not at all! You misunderstood me.
I’m not judging whether people are good enough or not; I’m in no position to be doing that. And your point about the two household names being worthless human beings is one that I totally agree with.

My point was that when it comes to all encompassing careers, frum people often have to sacrifice certain things because of Torah and religious culture, and that they can’t always do what non frum people can. Which is what I understood the OP to be asking.

Maya

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 4:34 pm

zaq wrote:

As someone who works in the courts, I know a little bit about the schedules of the judges in low level courts. I don’t think it would qualify as a time consuming or all encompassing job.

I am not judging the worth of people. I’m simply answering the OP who was asking whether frum people sometimes needs to sacrifice parts of their career, or the advancement in it, for Torah, and I think the answer is yes. This had nothing to do with peoples personal fulfillment or worth.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 7:28 pm

Well Torah and Jewish society are sometimes 2 different things. There's a lot of things Jewish society does or doesn't allow which has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah. It's just keeping up with the Cohen's etc.
Nowhere in the Torah does it say that a woman can't go to law school or med school. Nowhere does it say a woman has to get married , and noone said a woman has to have 8 kids. You also don't need to cook and clean.. you can pay someone to do that.
These things are societies expectations.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 7:32 pm

amother wrote:

I think the people trying to hold others back are either jealous or don't believe they could achieve those goals.. so they also don't want others to achieve them. It's easier to stay in the comfort zone, change diapers, make supper than going to med school with nonjews who don't appreciate your religious lifestyle

Ravenclaw

Sat, Nov 17 2018, 8:44 pm

amother wrote:

Technically according to today’s language Yochebed and Miriam would be OBs. Just saying.