Why is the Torah so simplistic about the avos/emahos?

amother

Mustard

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:11 am

It's always been strange to me that the Torah recounts the story of our forefathers in such a matter of fact and for the most part unflattering way. In yesterday's parsha we have yackov kissing rochel at the well after noticing that she was very pretty. Then we have rochel and leah getting together to trick yackov into marrying leah. We also have reuvein helping his mother seduce yackov with fine fruit. Last week we have yackov and rivka tricking yitzchak into giving yackov the brochos after yackov bought the brochos from his brother for bean soup. In the coming weeks we will have reuvein sleeping with his stepmother bilha and the shevatim killing their brother and then lying to their father about it. I'm trying to apply this behavior to the Torah giants of today. Can anyone see reb chaim thinking or involving himself in this type of stuff? I get that there are answers to these questions, but we are talking about people who literally had ruach hakodesh and spoke with hashem.
As an aside, I always wondered why the Torah specifically mentions that all emohos were very pretty. Why is that important?

bigsis144

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:19 am

studying_torah wrote:

Wait reuvain slept with bilhah? Never learned that one.
Otherwise I agree OP, am curious too

וַיֵּ֣לֶךְ רְאוּבֵ֔ן וַיִּשְׁכַּ֕ב֙ אֶת־בִּלְהָ֖ה֙ פִּילֶ֣גֶשׁ אָבִ֑֔יו << this week’s parsha.

In Yaakov’s bracha in parshas Vayechi, which we memorized as 4th graders, it was referred to euphemistically as “moving Yaakov’s bed”.

My answer on the simplicity of the pshat: “so that the children should ask”, pretty much. It begs for Midrash and Torah she Baal Peh and mesorah to explain it, and that’s a cornerstone of Judaism as a religion.

Last edited by bigsis144 on Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:27 am; edited 2 times in total

trixx

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:23 am

The text storyline is very sparse which is why you need meforshim or even rashi to flesh out out. It is not meant to be a hagiography.

Yaakov kissed rochel bc he knew they were soul mates ie recognized the beauty of her soul.

Rochel and Leah didn't trick their father - rochel spared Leah embarrassment at the hand of their scammy father at a large public wedding at which the whole town was invited.

BTW Reuven was severely rebuked for messing with his parents sleeping arrangements.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:38 am

studying_torah wrote:

Wait reuvain slept with bilhah? Never learned that one.
Otherwise I agree OP, am curious too

In parishes vayishlach, 35:22.

There are many medrashim about this, many of them beg for more questions. One pshat is that reuvein was protecting his yerusha because after being with bilhah his father wouldn't want to be with her anymore and he wouldn't have to divide his yerusha more than necessary. Another pshat is that since yackov loved rochel more (again, what??? Yackov aveinu played favorites with the emohos? This continued when the Torah explicitly says he loved yosef more than his other children. So strange!) Reuvein was concerned that his father would go to his mothers maid after rochels death. In an attempt to prevent this, reuvein was intimate with her. I'm not sure why this would necessarily stop yackov from being with bilhah, but this is what's brought down. The are other pshatim as well.

etky

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:56 am

When you say 'simplistic' do you mean 'unvarnished'?
What we are told of the lives of the Avot/Imahot are basically selected anecdotes that are supposed to be instructive to us in some way and to illustrate the founding of the Jewish people and the basis for G-d's relationship with their forefathers and with them.
The Torah does not sweep human failings and frailties under the rug - on the contrary, it uses these stories to teach us proper behavior or as cautionary tales.
The behaviors that we hear of in these stories often attest societal norms and conventions particular to biblical times but the underlying human emotions and urges that they address are still just as relevant to us today.

zaq

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:14 am

Let’s get things straight, the shvatim DID NOT kill their brother. If I’m not mistaken, eved chashuv kamet, so in that sense they killed him by selling him into slavery.

It all seems quite simple to me: G-d is opposed to cults of personality. He shows our founders, warts and all, for two reasons:1. So that we shouldn’t think they were infallible and worship them as demigods; and 2. So that when we sin, we shouldn’t despair and give up because we’re not perfect, but we should understand that no one is perfect, not even our founders, and therefore we must just try to be the best we can be.

Ema of 5

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:22 am

amother wrote:

I will leave your question for others to answer, but I just want to point out that you are mistaken about this. Rochel and Leah didn’t get together to trick Yaakov. They KNEW that Lavan was going to trick Yaakov, so they got together to save Leah from the embarrassment.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:31 am

eema of 3 wrote:

I suppose it's impossible for us modern day people to put together these events in a rational sequence. I don't agree with what you're saying from a practical standpoint because while we can always find round about far fetched explanations, the reality is that the way the torah describes the story is entirely not practical. Ultimately, yackov didn't see Leah so he assumed it was Rochel and didn't notice till the next morning. In the same way they tricked Yackov they could have tricked Lavan. Rochel could have covered her face completely and led her father to believe that she was Leah and married Yackov. Of course you could answer, that's impossible! Lavan was at the wedding hall early and was in and out of the kallahs dressing room. He would have noticed in an instant it was Rochel.

etky

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:35 am

amother wrote:

Because it was important to the story line.
In the case of Sara we only hear it when she and Avraham go down to Egypt and her beauty becomes an issue there
In the case of Rivka we hear it to from Eliezer's POV, to explain her initial appeal to him, even before she performs her chessed at the well, and as part of the reason that she was deemed an appropriate bride for Yitzhak.
In the case of Rachel, to explain why Ya'acov was so taken with her that he was willing to work 7 years for the privilege of marrying her.
Leah was not described as pretty but rather עיני לאה רכות as an explanation for something - the meaning of which is open to interpretation but it probably explains why she was less desirable physically than Rachel.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:41 am

zaq wrote:

This seems like an apologist type answer. First of all the shevatim threw Yosef into an empty pit with snakes. They were jealous of him and attempted to kill him. As far as the torah pointing out the flaws of the avos, 2 things.

1. Their flaws are so un-avos like. Jealousy, murder, appreciating beautiful woman, deceit, and relations. At some point if we are being honest and practical, we'e crossing the line from "learning from them as they were not perfect", to what in the world was going on with these godly people???

2. Jews don't worship gedolim as gods. We look up to them with respect, admiration and awe. There's nothing wrong with that and in fact serves as excellent role models. We have books and stories of gedolim and we use this to train our children and inspire ourselves. Are we really meant to flip the scrip with the avos of all people? With them, according to the torah, they had the very same short comings, desires, and inclinations as we do today? Does that really make sense to you?

sequoia

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:49 am

Well, maybe that’s a new thing.

The concept of “inspiration” is a modern one, anyway.

And our entire religion is based on the Torah, not on whatever communities choose to do today in terms of idealizing certain leaders.

Look, there’s nothing “simplistic” about saying, “everybody sins, even those who essentially created us as a people. We don’t come from angels; we come from imperfect humans.” But there’s so much more we could say about them, so much to learn and ponder and discover anew with every reading.

etky

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:53 am

trixx wrote:

Actually, he wasn't.
It just says וישמע ישראל
There was no rebuke. Ya'acov was silent and we are left to wonder why - with many, many possibilities for interpretation.
However, ultimately Reuven does pay very dearly for this action, as we see in Birkot Ya'acov and through the rest of Tanach, basically forfeiting his leadership role as the b'chor.

etky

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:59 am

sequoia wrote:

Indeed.
And one of the remarkable traits of biblical giants like Yosef and David for example is the fact that they grow through their life experiences, as they gain understanding of their mission in life and as their relationship with Hashem deepens.

zaq

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 8:07 am

amother wrote:

2. Jews don't worship gedolim as gods. We look up to them with respect, admiration and awe. There's nothing wrong with that and in fact serves as excellent role models. We have books and stories of gedolim and we use this to train our children and inspire ourselves. Are we really meant to flip the scrip with the avos of all people? With them, according to the torah, they had the very same short comings, desires, and inclinations as we do today? Does that really make sense to you?

Absolutely. That is my point. Unlike other religions, we don’t worship our Avos as gods because we understand that they weren’t gods. On the contrary, they were human beings with human passions and faults. Yes, that is the point, that they DID have a yetzer hara, yet by struggling against it they reached heights of spiritual and moral achievement that have never been duplicated.

The lesson to us is “ don’t wallow in feelings of inferiority because you aren’t perfect. The Avos were also plagued by jealousy, lust, sibling rivalry, parenting mistakes, and so on, but look at what they achieved! You, too, can achieve more than you think you can.”

Of what value would Avos be if they were perfect and never had any temptation to sin? How could we possibly relate? We would say “Well of course they were tzadikim, they never had any desire to be anything else.If they had been saddled with a yetzer hara like mine, they wouldn’t have been half so righteous.” Or we would say “I messed up big time, I may as well give up right now because I’ll never overcome my yetzer hara.” The nitty-gritty Tanach is there to show us that no, you can achieve greatness despite your yetzer hara.

I believe our chachamim tell us that the greater the person, the greater is his yetzer hara. What makes him great is that he perpetually struggles against it.

Whom do you admire more: a born genius with photographic memory who never had to study a day in her life to get straight A’s in school, a perfect SAT score and a 4.0 GPA in Harvard, or a person who had to fall down, pick herself up, and sweat blood every step of the way to achieve the same thing? Which one inspires you? In whose footsteps is it remotely possible for you to follow? About which one might you say “I should try to be like her”?

zaq

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 8:17 am

amother wrote:

As an aside, I always wondered why the Torah specifically mentions that all emohos were very pretty. Why is that important?

I have often wondered about that, especially since Shlomo Hamelech talks about “sheker hachein vehevel hayofi.” The only thing I can think of is to emphasize their virtue and modesty. It’s probably not that hard to be virtuous if you’re not so desirable. Why would you want to flaunt yourself, and who’s gonna want to tempt you to sin? But if you’re beautiful, it must be very tempting to show off what you have, and there would be no lack of men trying to take advantage.

As to modesty, of the humility variety, again, it’s easy to be humble about your looks if you don’t have any to speak of. Much harder to be humble if you’re a beauty.